The facts, just the FACTS about EotW and WoF !

[John Wall]

Nov 20, 2013 2:28:46 GMT Nicholas Fitzpatrick said:

Nov 19, 2013 22:16:52 GMT John Wall said:

I make the - justified - assumption that the reels were returned to the UK very shortly before conservation/restoration station.

Is anybody prepared to argue that 45 year old reels of film - some with a vinegar smell - wouldn't have been conserved/restored as soon as possible ?

If anybody is I'd like to know what they're smokin' and how can I get some ?

Similarly, I consider it reasonable that these reels would have been got back to the UK by the quickest possible method - air.

The problem with your assumption, which is quiet reasonable, is that there have been consistent and continuous rumours floating around about this recovery in particular, since early 2011, which at the time put the recovery in 2010 or earlier.

I suppose the existence of such rumours could be a complete and total coincidence. But it's not the simplest explanation.

Paul Vanezis noted that he had examined one film before the date in late May when he examined the rest of them, but he didn't mention the date. Perhaps knowing that date might answer this.

I expect though, we won't know the answer until the entire story comes out.

Something to look forward to ... I'm almost more eager to hear the story of how this came to be, than for the material itself.

There are ALWAYS rumours floating around. Somebody, ironically, got their fingers burnt regarding WoF a few years ago....

[John Wall]

Nov 20, 2013 6:36:02 GMT johnforbes said:

Nov 19, 2013 22:42:43 GMT John Wall said:

I'm trying to smoke out those who claim that the episodes were recovered a long time ago and shipped home on a (slow) boat.

Anybody who wants to argue that has to justify why 45 year old reels of film - some with a vinegar smell - weren't dealt with asap. I'm still waiting....

Well, since your above comment seems to be aimed towards me, it's best if it falls to me to take your "belief system" apart.

And that's pretty easy to do with FACTS:

One poster claims that Phil has said there was a church bombing while he was in Jos.

If this is correct, and I see no reason why it shouldn't be. Google is then a Doctor Who detective's best friend.

The earliest these episodes could have been found, were in 2010, the latest 2013.

In that time, there have been the following recorded bombings on churches in Jos.

December 24th 2010 (church)
December 28th 2010 (market square near church)
December 25th 2011 (church)
February 26th 2012 (church)
March 11th 2012 (church)
June 10th 2012 (church

And that's it. Nothing else.

Therefore, I don't care if each individual frame on every reel was hanging by a nano thread. Or if the smell of vinegar was so overpowering people had to wear gas masks. The FACT of the matter is, that the VERY LATEST the prints announced so far could have been found, is June 10th 2012.

That latest date, is STILL, ALMOST A FULL YEAR, until they were given to the BBC.

As can be seen, Jos is a hell of a dangerous place to be. If you can possibly help it, you really don't want to try your luck there sticking out like a sore thumb as a white man in a place frequently targeted by Boko Haram Islamic Extremists.
Ideally, you have a look in the vault, see what you want, and then possibly arrange for the transfer of all the material there if it is quite a bit, as realistically, you just don't have the time or luxury to check every tin.
If there isn't a lot, you possibly take it all away with you after paying a few bribes to walk out with it and put it in your van.
However, whichever it was, you probably take away with you at the time, ANY cans labelled Doctor Who and thank your damn lucky stars that you lived to tell the tale.

If the films were SO bad as you seem to claim, that restoration work was needed immediately, Phil would have taken them all immediately. Even in that scenario, and even going by that very latest date of June 10th 2012, he hardly immediately flew them to the RT team's desk did he ?

Paul V DID state in Jan 2011 that they were already in contact with the Nigerians. Based on the bombing information above. Phil COULD have found them on December 24th 2010. And the "contact with the Nigerians" COULD have been to arrange transportation of all the material held there (not just Doctor Who). However, like I point out, any cans which DID say Doctor Who, Phil may well have taken them immediately as a precaution. If there was a lot of material, that may have taken time to arrange, and in that case, WOF 3, could STILL be in the wrong tin in the shipment (via ship) that came to England.
And bearing in mind what I have stated so far, and how much Phil literally risked his life to look in Jos, I don't think there is one Doctor Who fan in the entire world who would begrudge paying again if WOF 3 is released at a later date on another DVD and was stated to have been put in a wrong tin that couldn't be checked at the time due to the extreme circumstances I have described.

However, the earliest December 24th 2010 scenario, backed up by FACTS, still backs up one of my ideas, that the films could in fact have been found and obtained over 2 years ago. And that the rest of Africa was finished afterwards so that Phil could come to the negotiating table with EVERYTHING that he had.

So sorry to break it to you, but whichever scenario is correct based upon the factual events and dates they took place, your assumptions in your original post, are quite clearly wrong !!

This is, in a perverse way, quite entertaining......

I make the deduction, based on the need for prompt action on 45 year old reels, that they arrived in the UK shortly before we know that work started.

And this is how that is countered:


"And that's pretty easy to do with FACTS:

One poster claims that Phil has said there was a church bombing while he was in Jos.

If this is correct, and I see no reason why it shouldn't be. Google is then a Doctor Who detective's best friend."


I really don't think I need to say much more. We've got a second/third claim being passed off as a fact. We don't know if the claim is true and even if it is we don't know how many visits were made to Jos.

This sort of thing is a sad reflection on so many things

[johnforbes]

Nov 20, 2013 9:48:26 GMT John Wall said:

Nov 20, 2013 2:28:46 GMT Nicholas Fitzpatrick said:

The problem with your assumption, which is quiet reasonable, is that there have been consistent and continuous rumours floating around about this recovery in particular, since early 2011, which at the time put the recovery in 2010 or earlier.

I suppose the existence of such rumours could be a complete and total coincidence. But it's not the simplest explanation.

Paul Vanezis noted that he had examined one film before the date in late May when he examined the rest of them, but he didn't mention the date. Perhaps knowing that date might answer this.

I expect though, we won't know the answer until the entire story comes out.

Something to look forward to ... I'm almost more eager to hear the story of how this came to be, than for the material itself.

There are ALWAYS rumours floating around. Somebody, ironically, got their fingers burnt regarding WoF a few years ago....

Except that this time, there are actual dated facts to back up that claim in early 2011 that the episodes has been found by then. Since Paul has himself stated they were in contact with them in Nigeria in January 2011 at the latest, and that there was a bomb attack on a church in Jos in December of 2010.

[John Wall]

Nov 20, 2013 9:55:46 GMT johnforbes said:

Nov 20, 2013 9:48:26 GMT John Wall said:

There are ALWAYS rumours floating around. Somebody, ironically, got their fingers burnt regarding WoF a few years ago....

Except that this time, there are actual dated facts to back up that claim in early 2011 that the episodes has been found by then. Since Paul has himself stated they were in contact with them in Nigeria in January 2011 at the latest, and that there was a bomb attack on a church in Jos in December of 2010.

See above. When you learn to separate rumours/claims from facts then, perhaps, you'll start making a meaningful contribution here.

[johnforbes]

Nov 20, 2013 9:55:37 GMT John Wall said:

Nov 20, 2013 6:36:02 GMT johnforbes said:

Well, since your above comment seems to be aimed towards me, it's best if it falls to me to take your "belief system" apart.

And that's pretty easy to do with FACTS:

One poster claims that Phil has said there was a church bombing while he was in Jos.

If this is correct, and I see no reason why it shouldn't be. Google is then a Doctor Who detective's best friend.

The earliest these episodes could have been found, were in 2010, the latest 2013.

In that time, there have been the following recorded bombings on churches in Jos.

December 24th 2010 (church)
December 28th 2010 (market square near church)
December 25th 2011 (church)
February 26th 2012 (church)
March 11th 2012 (church)
June 10th 2012 (church

And that's it. Nothing else.

Therefore, I don't care if each individual frame on every reel was hanging by a nano thread. Or if the smell of vinegar was so overpowering people had to wear gas masks. The FACT of the matter is, that the VERY LATEST the prints announced so far could have been found, is June 10th 2012.

That latest date, is STILL, ALMOST A FULL YEAR, until they were given to the BBC.

As can be seen, Jos is a hell of a dangerous place to be. If you can possibly help it, you really don't want to try your luck there sticking out like a sore thumb as a white man in a place frequently targeted by Boko Haram Islamic Extremists.
Ideally, you have a look in the vault, see what you want, and then possibly arrange for the transfer of all the material there if it is quite a bit, as realistically, you just don't have the time or luxury to check every tin.
If there isn't a lot, you possibly take it all away with you after paying a few bribes to walk out with it and put it in your van.
However, whichever it was, you probably take away with you at the time, ANY cans labelled Doctor Who and thank your damn lucky stars that you lived to tell the tale.

If the films were SO bad as you seem to claim, that restoration work was needed immediately, Phil would have taken them all immediately. Even in that scenario, and even going by that very latest date of June 10th 2012, he hardly immediately flew them to the RT team's desk did he ?

Paul V DID state in Jan 2011 that they were already in contact with the Nigerians. Based on the bombing information above. Phil COULD have found them on December 24th 2010. And the "contact with the Nigerians" COULD have been to arrange transportation of all the material held there (not just Doctor Who). However, like I point out, any cans which DID say Doctor Who, Phil may well have taken them immediately as a precaution. If there was a lot of material, that may have taken time to arrange, and in that case, WOF 3, could STILL be in the wrong tin in the shipment (via ship) that came to England.
And bearing in mind what I have stated so far, and how much Phil literally risked his life to look in Jos, I don't think there is one Doctor Who fan in the entire world who would begrudge paying again if WOF 3 is released at a later date on another DVD and was stated to have been put in a wrong tin that couldn't be checked at the time due to the extreme circumstances I have described.

However, the earliest December 24th 2010 scenario, backed up by FACTS, still backs up one of my ideas, that the films could in fact have been found and obtained over 2 years ago. And that the rest of Africa was finished afterwards so that Phil could come to the negotiating table with EVERYTHING that he had.

So sorry to break it to you, but whichever scenario is correct based upon the factual events and dates they took place, your assumptions in your original post, are quite clearly wrong !!

This is, in a perverse way, quite entertaining......

I make the deduction, based on the need for prompt action on 45 year old reels, that they arrived in the UK shortly before we know that work started.

And this is how that is countered:


"And that's pretty easy to do with FACTS:

One poster claims that Phil has said there was a church bombing while he was in Jos.

If this is correct, and I see no reason why it shouldn't be. Google is then a Doctor Who detective's best friend."


I really don't think I need to say much more. We've got a second/third claim being passed off as a fact. We don't know if the claim is true and even if it is we don't know how many visits were made to Jos.

This sort of thing is a sad reflection on so many things

If Phil Morris has actually stated somewhere that there was a bomb attack on a church while he was in Jos. The latest this could have been was June 10th last year.

Phil himself has said that the films were kept in very good conditions in Jos. Good conditions, but, in dire need of instant restoration, simply doesn't add up.

Whilever he was looking, and whilever the films were in "good condition" he really had no need to immediately send them back to the BBC. He isn't/wasn't a BBC employee. So if he so chose, he could have decided to never send them back at all.

The "sad reflections" are that, you seem to think 45 year old films kept in good conditions can't possibly survive another day before disintegration unless they are immediately airmailed back to the RT. And that even when a person comes up with factual dates and events, you still refuse to believe those facts because they don't support your theory of the films being sent to the RT immediately.

Just accept that in all likelihood, you are almost certainly wrong in your assumptions.

[John Wall]

Nov 20, 2013 10:22:37 GMT johnforbes said:

Nov 20, 2013 9:55:37 GMT John Wall said:

This is, in a perverse way, quite entertaining......

I make the deduction, based on the need for prompt action on 45 year old reels, that they arrived in the UK shortly before we know that work started.

And this is how that is countered:


"And that's pretty easy to do with FACTS:

One poster claims that Phil has said there was a church bombing while he was in Jos.

If this is correct, and I see no reason why it shouldn't be. Google is then a Doctor Who detective's best friend."


I really don't think I need to say much more. We've got a second/third claim being passed off as a fact. We don't know if the claim is true and even if it is we don't know how many visits were made to Jos.

This sort of thing is a sad reflection on so many things

If Phil Morris has actually stated somewhere that there was a bomb attack on a church while he was in Jos. The latest this could have been was June 10th last year.

Phil himself has said that the films were kept in very good conditions in Jos. Good conditions, but, in dire need of instant restoration, simply doesn't add up.

Whilever he was looking, and whilever the films were in "good condition" he really had no need to immediately send them back to the BBC. He isn't/wasn't a BBC employee. So if he so chose, he could have decided to never send them back at all.

The "sad reflections" are that, you seem to think 45 year old films kept in good conditions can't possibly survive another day before disintegration unless they are immediately airmailed back to the RT. And that even when a person comes up with factual dates and events, you still refuse to believe those facts because they don't support your theory of the films being sent to the RT immediately.

Just accept that in all likelihood, you are almost certainly wrong in your assumptions.

I suggest, if you haven't already done so, that you READ the article in DWM. According to Paul "It was obvious that the cans had not been stored in optimum conditions". Then he refers to a "faint but distinctive vinegar odour" although he does note that "The general condition of all the films was sound". There is, however, enough in the article to indicate that work needed to start promptly which is why I draw the, reasonable, conclusion that they arrived back in the UK shortly before work started.

I won't bother detailing the many flaws in the, so called, "facts" presented as life's too short.

[Marty Schultz]

This whole thread is both ridiculous and appalling. You have been asked not to speculate because of the danger etc that you are all trivially arguing about.. So you go through peoples bins... In aid of what? What do you think anyone will achieve here? Regardless of whether anyone is right or wrong - it doesn't achieve anything other than potentially damaging possible further returns (not just WHO). Have a look at the other sections of missing episodes - general - radio - music. Research and thought are apparent in said sections. No-one is analysing the personal history of anyone. Just research and help as opposed to the childish rhetoric here.

[Rob Moss]

I'm closing this thread, because despite the title, it's not just dealing with facts, it's full of rampant speculation and assumptions, just like the other one. Also, the tone of some of the posts on here is getting quite unpleasant.

It may reopen later. Or not.