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Post by John Wall on Nov 19, 2013 14:18:53 GMT
There has been a lot of what can best be described as rubbish posted on this board recently, with what are clearly unsubstantiated rumours - or wishes - passed off as facts.
Strangely enough there is only ONE actual fact.
By the end of April 2013 eleven reels of 16mm b&w film were in the UK.
That's it !
It is possible to go a little further by looking at the article in DWM which talks about the stabilisation/restoration work, mentioning smells of vinegar, etc. Philip Morris had looked in the cans and identified what he considered the immediate priorities.
On that basis I think it's reasonable to conclude that they'd arrived in the UK shortly before - probably also in April - and that they came by air so that work could start as soon as possible.
So, that's a single fact and two reasonable deductions.
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Post by Patrick Coles on Nov 19, 2013 15:26:00 GMT
Yes
Is anybody arguing otherwise ?
we all know that is a: 'FACT' - you appear to be stating the obvious here
but what do you then mean by 'That's it !' exactly ?
- do you know something nobody else does on here....for a FACT ? (i.e. that only two stories have been found and nothing else at all)
I feel we can't ever talk in strident 'absolutes' (complete with obligatory exclamation marks to emphasise !) when in truth we just don't 100% know the entire picture or for a fact that ONLY these two stories have been discovered, and people are perfectly entitled of course to express their opinions or discuss possibilities, nothing wrong in that is there ? and surely discussion is the very point of these forums ?
I certainly wouldn't ever go dismissing as 'Rubbish' out of hand any rumours circulating about any possible other recoveries however, as, bear in mind, there WAS a time when talk about the potential recovery of 'The Web of Fear' was EQUALLY being stridently dismissed as nothing but: 'Rubbish !' too by a number of apparently knowledgable and 'respected' figures within fandom...
and it clearly was not 'Rubbish' at all....was it ?
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Post by Jaspal Cheema on Nov 19, 2013 15:48:57 GMT
There has been a lot of what can best be described as rubbish posted on this board recently, with what are clearly unsubstantiated rumours - or wishes - passed off as facts. Strangely enough there is only ONE actual fact. By the end of April 2013 eleven reels of 16mm b&w film were in the UK. That's it ! It is possible to go a little further by looking at the article in DWM which talks about the stabilisation/restoration work, mentioning smells of vinegar, etc. Philip Morris had looked in the cans and identified what he considered the immediate priorities. On that basis I think it's reasonable to conclude that they'd arrived in the UK shortly before - probably also in April - and that they came by air so that work could start as soon as possible. So, that's a single fact and two reasonable deductions. I seem to remember similar posts about rubbish being posted prior to the 9 missing episodes being recovered,and lo and behold-9 episodes turned up!So the current rumours have as much validity as those before the EOTW and WOF recoveries,it's just that the current rumours extend into the near future,as did the rumours before the EOTW and WOF were announced (I'm caught in a Rumours Paradox!).Frankly,I don't think we can even believe DWM about the status of lost stories,extending back to issues published even over a year ago.How much do they know about what has been found and how do they skirt around the issue?For example they say wierdly that POTD is 'no longer held by the BBC' in one edition which just smacks to me that it's a way of saying 'it exists,but just not in the BBC archives at the moment!'EvenTom Spilsbury was denying their existence just a few days before the recoveries were announced!So official individuals who deny the rumours are naturally at loggerheads with those who also leak the information,who are in turn at loggerheads with those that say the above cannot be true due to the lack of hard evidence!
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Post by johnforbes on Nov 19, 2013 16:26:23 GMT
Hmm, facts so far about Nigerian stations who didn't need to bicycle stuff on.
Station 1: Received WP, TWM, TM. 100% success record of not destroying their stuff. 100% record of it being found and handed back. Station 2: Received EOTW, WOF, TAS, WIS. (Also it seems) in as far as we know to date, kept their stuff. So far, also found and handed back in.
So the main fact is, given Nigeria's apparent policy of not destroying stuff, it isn't too unreasonable whatsoever to suspect that Phil or the BBC also have TAS and WIS or that WOF 3 may be in a mislabelled tin or held but not 100% restorable..
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Post by johnforbes on Nov 19, 2013 16:57:45 GMT
I think it's reasonable to conclude that they'd arrived in the UK shortly before - probably also in April 2013 NO !! It is very unreasonable to conclude that date. In January 2011, Paul himself posted here on the forums that they were ALREADY in talks with the Nigerians. THAT, is a fact. So possibly, they were in talks with them at some point in 2010 as I don't think Paul is going to write on the forum the very minute that talks with a country start. Phil himself has also spent time in Nigeria in his job on the oil platforms. If he was already there, or had clearance to go there because of his oil job, I honestly don't think it will have taken him over 2 years to get to Jos. In his comment in 2011, Paul implied that they knew exactly where the station they originally sent those prints to, was located. So given these facts, in all honesty, do you (or anyone else) seriously expect people to believe it took Phil over 2 years to make it to Jos ? If he was working there at the time already as a crane operator, hell, he could have even gone there on his first weekend off to have a look. So, given the huge timeframe between Paul's post, and the episodes being given to the RT, it is incredibly obvious that a LOT more has been going on behind the scenes in those 2+ years, than we are currently made aware of. Possibly finishing the search everywhere else in Africa. So that you can bring to the negotiating table EVERYTHING that you have got before coming to an agreement and handing it over, is the thing which springs to mind. As it is nonsensical for both parties to keep coming back to the table with every find that you make. Regardless of what else, if anything, was found. That is a quite credible scenario. So no, your assumption is very likely well wide of the actual mark.
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Post by Robbie Moubert on Nov 19, 2013 19:08:15 GMT
hell, he could have even gone there on his first weekend off to have a look. You make it sound so simple. The only fact I'm sure of is that we didn't need yet another bleedin' thread on the subject.
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Post by johnforbes on Nov 19, 2013 19:52:12 GMT
hell, he could have even gone there on his first weekend off to have a look. You make it sound so simple. It is. Africa seemed to be his posting, iirc he even said something to that effect himself. He really didn't have to go very far to start looking for missing tv.
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Simon Collis
Member
I have started to dream of lost things
Posts: 536
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Post by Simon Collis on Nov 19, 2013 20:00:54 GMT
You make it sound so simple. It is. Africa seemed to be his posting, iirc he even said something to that effect himself. He really didn't have to go very far to start looking for missing tv. You assume he could just walk into there. I mean, it's not Mordor, but I don't think any TV station in the world is just going to let you walk in and look through their archives. I'd be very surprised if a lot of the delay wasn't due to paperwork, permissions - the usual bureaucracy...
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Post by johnforbes on Nov 19, 2013 20:20:50 GMT
It is. Africa seemed to be his posting, iirc he even said something to that effect himself. He really didn't have to go very far to start looking for missing tv. You assume he could just walk into there. I mean, it's not Mordor, but I don't think any TV station in the world is just going to let you walk in and look through their archives. I'd be very surprised if a lot of the delay wasn't due to paperwork, permissions - the usual bureaucracy... He did have permission though. The full blessing of the BBC and BFI who were also in on the project from the word go. So no, I really don't think there was much delay in him actually going somewhere and having a look, in places that the team chose to go.
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Simon Collis
Member
I have started to dream of lost things
Posts: 536
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Post by Simon Collis on Nov 19, 2013 20:47:34 GMT
You assume he could just walk into there. I mean, it's not Mordor, but I don't think any TV station in the world is just going to let you walk in and look through their archives. I'd be very surprised if a lot of the delay wasn't due to paperwork, permissions - the usual bureaucracy... He did have permission though. The full blessing of the BBC and BFI who were also in on the project from the word go. So no, I really don't think there was much delay in him actually going somewhere and having a look, in places that the team chose to go. Depends how long it took for the BFI and the BBC to organise it is what I meant...
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Post by John Wall on Nov 19, 2013 20:51:41 GMT
I think it's reasonable to conclude that they'd arrived in the UK shortly before - probably also in April 2013 NO !! It is very unreasonable to conclude that date. In January 2011, Paul himself posted here on the forums that they were ALREADY in talks with the Nigerians. THAT, is a fact. So possibly, they were in talks with them at some point in 2010 as I don't think Paul is going to write on the forum the very minute that talks with a country start. Phil himself has also spent time in Nigeria in his job on the oil platforms. If he was already there, or had clearance to go there because of his oil job, I honestly don't think it will have taken him over 2 years to get to Jos. In his comment in 2011, Paul implied that they knew exactly where the station they originally sent those prints to, was located. So given these facts, in all honesty, do you (or anyone else) seriously expect people to believe it took Phil over 2 years to make it to Jos ? If he was working there at the time already as a crane operator, hell, he could have even gone there on his first weekend off to have a look. So, given the huge timeframe between Paul's post, and the episodes being given to the RT, it is incredibly obvious that a LOT more has been going on behind the scenes in those 2+ years, than we are currently made aware of. Possibly finishing the search everywhere else in Africa. So that you can bring to the negotiating table EVERYTHING that you have got before coming to an agreement and handing it over, is the thing which springs to mind. As it is nonsensical for both parties to keep coming back to the table with every find that you make. Regardless of what else, if anything, was found. That is a quite credible scenario. So no, your assumption is very likely well wide of the actual mark. You seem to have missed what I wrote about the need for consolidation/restoration. There was obviously a need for immediate work - read the DWM article - which is why I make the reasonable deduction that they only arrived shortly before work started. Do you really believe that 45 year old reels of film - with a vinegar smell - would be left lying around for months or years before anybody did any work on them ? You would do well to read everything that is written rather than cherrypicking to support your Belief System.
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Post by John Wall on Nov 19, 2013 20:53:52 GMT
Yes Is anybody arguing otherwise ? we all know that is a: 'FACT' - you appear to be stating the obvious here but what do you then mean by 'That's it !' exactly ? - do you know something nobody else does on here....for a FACT ? (i.e. that only two stories have been found and nothing else at all) I feel we can't ever talk in strident 'absolutes' (complete with obligatory exclamation marks to emphasise !) when in truth we just don't 100% know the entire picture or for a fact that ONLY these two stories have been discovered, and people are perfectly entitled of course to express their opinions or discuss possibilities, nothing wrong in that is there ? and surely discussion is the very point of these forums ? I certainly wouldn't ever go dismissing as 'Rubbish' out of hand any rumours circulating about any possible other recoveries however, as, bear in mind, there WAS a time when talk about the potential recovery of 'The Web of Fear' was EQUALLY being stridently dismissed as nothing but: 'Rubbish !' too by a number of apparently knowledgable and 'respected' figures within fandom... and it clearly was not 'Rubbish' at all....was it ? It's rather difficult to prove a negative.....
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Post by John Wall on Nov 19, 2013 20:55:09 GMT
hell, he could have even gone there on his first weekend off to have a look. You make it sound so simple. The only fact I'm sure of is that we didn't need yet another bleedin' thread on the subject. This one is shorter
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Post by Mark P on Nov 19, 2013 22:10:23 GMT
Not sure how you can say there is only ONE actual fact. By the end of April 2013 eleven reels of 16mm b&w film were in the UK.
The DWM has lots of facts, but no years given, about the recovery and restoration.
Over the last five years Philip has visited virtually every station / archive from Aden to Zambia that bought the show.
Unknown - Phil found them in Nigeria Unknown - whilst Phil was in Jos a church was blown up and people sadly massacred Unknown - Taken back to UK 28 April - Paul repaired Enemy 1-5 whilst 6 had already been examined 31 May - Paul repaired Web 1 June - Jonathan Wood telecine transferred them 2 June - Peter started restoring Enemy 7 August - Peter delivered Enemy 16 August - Peter started restoring Web 4 October - Peter delivered Web 10 October 2014 - News conference with Debrah Watling & Frazer Hines
I have read a very interesting web article on trying to narrow down the year of the Jos church massacre.
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Post by John Wall on Nov 19, 2013 22:16:52 GMT
I make the - justified - assumption that the reels were returned to the UK very shortly before conservation/restoration station.
Is anybody prepared to argue that 45 year old reels of film - some with a vinegar smell - wouldn't have been conserved/restored as soon as possible ?
If anybody is I'd like to know what they're smokin' and how can I get some ?
Similarly, I consider it reasonable that these reels would have been got back to the UK by the quickest possible method - air.
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