Possibly a new idea for finding missing episodes ..

[Dave Green]

For a long while I’ve been trying to think of ideas, which might not have been covered in regards to recovering missing episodes. One thing that struck me was that “could the system of bicycling prints actually work in our favour”.
Now before you all think I’ve gone slightly barmy, let me explain. In order to send prints from country to country or even back to the BBC, there would have been regular couriers in place for each TV station. I’m guessing if you take ABC Australia they would have probably had one company which shipped prints to neighboring districts/counties and another which shipped them to other countries. Also couriers would have changed from time to time.

In my mind that equates to a lot of courier companies around the world, which would have had in their possession at one point in time film prints from many TV series.

Now I’m only suggesting this as an idea to Paul and the other high level episode hunters, but rather than contact the TV stations, maybe find the courier companies used and see if any would be supportive in helping recover missing episodes. Obviously prior to contacting them, the permission from the TV stations to approach them may need to be sought.

From these companies more information might be learned about the bicycling chains and also where deliveries were possibly sent to the wrong address or maybe even not delivered. For what we know there could be a lovely parcel waiting in a warehouse for 40 years that couldn’t be delivered and wasn’t returned for whatever reason.

I appreciate that tracking down these companies could be time consuming and that it may have been already covered but I think it’s well worth a look.

Good idea, bad idea, what do people think??

[paulhayward]

Hello,

I’ve only recently discovered these forums, but have been following the various threads with great interest.

I also wanted to raise an idea for a (possibly new) avenue to explore. (I hope Dave Green does not mind my using his thread as a place for this.) This is probably not a new idea and so I apologize if this has been previously raised and discussed.

As I understand it, the issue of missing episodes of various TV programs is probably fairly well known (in the UK at least) as a result of various newspaper articles, campaigns by BFI, Radio Times, Blue Peter, etc., and the tireless work of many of the people involved with this forum (for which I am very grateful).

Accordingly, I suspect that the chances of someone knowing that he or she holds an old episode of Doctor Who or another TV show, but not being aware of the missing episodes issue, are relatively slim. (I acknowledge that this does appear to have been the case with the two episodes returned in 2011, and so is not impossible. However, I suspect this will be rare.)

Rather, it seems to me that, to the extent a missing episode of an old TV show does exist, it is more likely the case that the holder is simply unaware that the holder holds the episode (e.g., because the print is in a mislabelled can or the holder does not know what is in his or her collection). This may eventually be discovered by chance but, short of asking all collectors to painstakingly go through their collections, is not likely to be discovered by a public appeal for missing episodes.

I was wondering if, instead of focussing on missing episodes, it might make sense to broaden the scope of the search to, e.g., copies of old format reel-to-reel videotapes and video cassette tapes from early model video cassette recorders that may still exist.

As I understand it, early model video cassette recorders did start to appear in the 1950s and 1960s. Wikipedia has an article about early video cassette recorder models here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Videocassette_recorder

To the extent old video tapes still exist (e.g., sitting in a box in someone’s attic), I assume they may have been used to tape off-air broadcasts of television programs. (Or is that unlikely? Would it have been technically difficult to hook up a 1960s video recorder to a 1960s TV? Not being technically minded -- I can barely hook up my DVD player to my TV today! -- I'm not really able to comment!)

Assuming old format video tapes could still contain off-air broadcasts, I wonder if this might be a useful avenue to explore. While the chances of an old tape containing a missing episode of a particular programme (e.g., Doctor Who) may be slim, the tapes may still contain off-air recordings of other programs that are missing.

I realize video tape probably degrades over time. However, if the tapes have been stored in a cool dry place, they may still be playable. (Much to my surprise, I recently found I could still successfully load an old Sinclair Spectrum game that I had purchased in the early 1980s).

I also realize that people who still have copies of old video tapes likely would not have a machine to play them on. However, I suspect that a few working models may still exist with collectors or the manufacturers of early model machines (Sony, Phillips, JVC etc.) or Philip Morris’s company, the Television International Enterprise Archive,

Accordingly, would it make sense to broaden the appeal for early format video tapes and then see if they contain anything of interest? While this could be timeconsuming to check the contents of tapes (assuming that many tapes still exist) perhaps the work could be divided up among the fans or a professional could be paid to do this through a fan-supported crowdfunding campaign.

Just a thought...

[Dave Green]

Good idea Paul, this thread is all about ideas to help recover missing material so the more ideas the better ...

[Alistair Gordon]

What about transmitting a programme on the BBC World Service about missing episodes?

[Marty Schultz]

What about the places that dubbed audio? Mauritius etc..

[Marty Schultz]

In terms of domestic vcrs I just learned something :-) Not sure how you would even attempt to find old recordings like that. I work in TV industry and you rarely see umatic tapes. I even have some but I don't think there was very much market penetration until the late 70s/80s with vhs + betamax. Did these recorders have a tuner? I had assumed no until I read your aeticle.

[Charles Daniels]

Philips tapes are definitely floating about out there - n1500, n1700, SVR. Even on eBay

[Andrew Haddow]

Jun 30, 2013 0:21:34 GMT Marty Schultz said:

I even have some but I don't think there was very much market penetration until the late 70s/80s with vhs + betamax.

Finding missing Doctor Who on n1500s or 1700s in the UK is impossible as these machines didn't come into use until the 1970s. The CV-2000 would be your best hope, as these were used in the 60s.

N1500s and 1700s would be a good bet for missing 70s TV, though. A gentleman in my area listed a box of 30 such tapes on ebay featuring 70s schools programmes, so it is certainly possible.

[Charles Daniels]

Jun 30, 2013 10:38:49 GMT Andrew Haddow said:

Jun 30, 2013 0:21:34 GMT Marty Schultz said:

I even have some but I don't think there was very much market penetration until the late 70s/80s with vhs + betamax.

Finding missing Doctor Who on n1500s or 1700s in the UK is impossible as these machines didn't come into use until the 1970s. The CV-2000 would be your best hope, as these were used in the 60s.

N1500s and 1700s would be a good bet for missing 70s TV, though. A gentleman in my area listed a box of 30 such tapes on ebay featuring 70s schools programmes, so it is certainly possible.

It would be possible to find Dinosaurs/1 in colour

[Andrew Haddow]

Jun 30, 2013 19:13:05 GMT Charles Daniels said:

Jun 30, 2013 10:38:49 GMT Andrew Haddow said:

Finding missing Doctor Who on n1500s or 1700s in the UK is impossible as these machines didn't come into use until the 1970s. The CV-2000 would be your best hope, as these were used in the 60s.

N1500s and 1700s would be a good bet for missing 70s TV, though. A gentleman in my area listed a box of 30 such tapes on ebay featuring 70s schools programmes, so it is certainly possible.

It would be possible to find Dinosaurs/1 in colour

Sorry Charles, my mind was firmly in black and white mode!

You do have a point and I'm surprised we haven't heard of a single Pertwee recovered on this medium in the UK.

[Deleted]

I seem to remember it being reported somewhere that the earliest surviving colour off-air video so far uncovered has been an episode of Frontier In Space (which was not missing, obviously). Someone here may be able to confirm this though. So as Philips / U-matic were both around at that time, it is possible that a recording of Dinosaurs 1 is out there somewhere (although how likely that is I wouldn't like to guess at!).

[Steven Sigel]

I think the problems you are going to run into are:
1) Video recorders were very rare and expensive in that era - so there were not many of them...
2) Blank tape was very expensive - so chances are, even if something was recorded it was taped over. (Anecdote - a friend of mine claims he taped all of the Pertwees including M.O.E. from WGBH when they ran them in the 70s, but he would re-use the same tape over and over ).
3) people consider old videotapes to be junk -- I personally tossed 1500 VHS tapes not long ago.
4) Even if a tape with something like this survived - there's also the problem of deterioration. It's not guaranteed that you'd be able to recover the material.

[richardwoods]

I read somewhere that the earliest domestic recording found so far of Dr Who was ironically episode 2 of the Space Pirates recorded on a reel to reel format.

[Andrew Haddow]

Jun 30, 2013 20:10:14 GMT richardwoods said:

I read somewhere that the earliest domestic recording found so far of Dr Who was ironically episode 2 of the Space Pirates recorded on a reel to reel format.

Yes, it was PV himself who found it I believe. There were also tapes with dates that corresponded with the Evil of the Daleks repeats in 1968, but they had The Forsyte Saga on instead.

[Charles Daniels]

Jun 30, 2013 19:39:17 GMT @laurencepiper said:

I seem to remember it being reported somewhere that the earliest surviving colour off-air video so far uncovered has been an episode of Frontier In Space (which was not missing, obviously). Someone here may be able to confirm this though. So as Philips / U-matic were both around at that time, it is possible that a recording of Dinosaurs 1 is out there somewhere (although how likely that is I wouldn't like to guess at!).

It's ridiculous to the point of needing a minor miracle :-) it would have to be taped, not taped over, stored well, not junked, playable, and you'd need to discover it's there. BUT I can always dream, and keep hunting