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Post by Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy on Jun 14, 2013 17:12:35 GMT
You offer a vague "rumor" with sources that can't be named, information that can't be checked, and details that can't be revealed then the fandom will Speculate to create substance to the rumor.
Every past speculation and rumor has been rewritten and injected into this story. Every word uttered at a con or on the message boards are scrutinized and re-read through a different lens. It creates a monster of a problem, because separating truth from fiction is near impossible.
It's all ridiculous. Silly. And Dangerous. I'd suggest deleting the entire thread if it weren't for the fact that doing so would create further insane speculation that something has been found. (See Gallifrey Base)
... ...
I keep thinking that I could be doing good by trying my best to stop people and tell them to think about the speculation they just heard. To remember the facts as detailed on BroaDWCast or in Missing Believed Wiped. To understand that the probability of Evil of the Daleks being found in Africa is a lot less than finding Marco Polo in Africa. My idea being that "If you need to Speculate, then please Speculate smartly!"
But I'm no longer optimistic that it does any good. Too many people aren't willing to consider the facts, and trying to combat rampant rumors with facts just continues the conversation ... it doesn't give people the incentive to just relax and wait. It just gives them incentive to keep running circles.
I want to contribute to the conversation, but not at the risk of any damage to negotiations (if there are any). As much as stupid rumors tend to bother me (and they're getting really stupid), it's probably time to just let it go and close the window until another day.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 17:45:41 GMT
You offer a vague "rumor" with sources that can't be named, information that can't be checked, and details that can't be revealed then the fandom will Speculate to create substance to the rumor. Every past speculation and rumor has been rewritten and injected into this story. Every word uttered at a con or on the message boards are scrutinized and re-read through a different lens. It creates a monster of a problem, because separating truth from fiction is near impossible. It's all ridiculous. Silly. And Dangerous. I'd suggest deleting the entire thread if it weren't for the fact that doing so would create further insane speculation that something has been found. (See Gallifrey Base) ... ... I keep thinking that I could be doing good by trying my best to stop people and tell them to think about the speculation they just heard. To remember the facts as detailed on BroaDWCast or in Missing Believed Wiped. To understand that the probability of Evil of the Daleks being found in Africa is a lot less than finding Marco Polo in Africa. My idea being that "If you need to Speculate, then please Speculate smartly!" But I'm no longer optimistic that it does any good. Too many people aren't willing to consider the facts, and trying to combat rampant rumors with facts just continues the conversation ... it doesn't give people the incentive to just relax and wait. It just gives them incentive to keep running circles. I want to contribute to the conversation, but not at the risk of any damage to negotiations (if there are any). As much as stupid rumors tend to bother me (and they're getting really stupid), it's probably time to just let it go and close the window until another day. That said, I would never had posted anything about this if it wasn't for whom it was coming from. Rich Johnson is someone who has a lot of good sources who have been fairly accurate in the past. Bleeding Cool was where I first heard the reports that Brian Michael Bendis would be jumping from the Avengers books at Marvel to the X-Men books. He's also been pretty good at detailing the ongoing disaster that is DC Comics. So this isn't someone who just picks an internet rumor and reports on it, unless he has some kind of source to back him up. He also leaked the news that a notable character was going to turn out to have been replaced by an alien long before news about the Secret Invasion crossover event happened ay Marvel. He was also the first person that I know of to report stories about Neil Gaiman writing for Doctor Who. So he apparently has (or at least had at one point) sources connected to the series as well. I was willing to go out on a limb to talk about this in the forums because of Rich's previous record. It's not perfect, but he's been more right than wrong. And I'm sorry if It sounds like I'm repeating myself over this. Then again, I'm apparently not the only one here doing so.
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Post by D. Frame on Jun 14, 2013 18:04:33 GMT
I don't quite understand the connection between dictators and doctor who? Sitting down each episode to watch the evil Villain overthrown. Over time it might send you a little mad......maybe there's something to it after all.
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Post by Tony Ingram on Jun 14, 2013 18:07:35 GMT
I don't quite understand the connection between dictators and doctor who? Sitting down each episode to watch the evil Villain overthrown. Over time it might send you a little mad......maybe there's something to it after all. Just because someone is a genocidal maniac, that doesn't mean they can't have good taste in entertainment.
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Post by Jaspal Cheema on Jun 14, 2013 18:12:58 GMT
You do realize that if these episodes DO turn up,it will be SUCH an anti-climax.Arguing about whether they have turned up or if it's a hoax or not,is so much more interesting than having them actually turn up!The only thing that worries me,and what makes me very dubious about the whole topic is the wildly fluctuating number of episodes that seem to have been found- 1,2,4 or 42 episodes depending on who is in the know or what well connected sources they've spoken to.
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Post by Daniel Hornby on Jun 14, 2013 18:15:11 GMT
You offer a vague "rumor" with sources that can't be named, information that can't be checked, and details that can't be revealed then the fandom will Speculate to create substance to the rumor. Every past speculation and rumor has been rewritten and injected into this story. Every word uttered at a con or on the message boards are scrutinized and re-read through a different lens. It creates a monster of a problem, because separating truth from fiction is near impossible. It's all ridiculous. Silly. And Dangerous. I'd suggest deleting the entire thread if it weren't for the fact that doing so would create further insane speculation that something has been found. (See Gallifrey Base) ... ... I keep thinking that I could be doing good by trying my best to stop people and tell them to think about the speculation they just heard. To remember the facts as detailed on BroaDWCast or in Missing Believed Wiped. To understand that the probability of Evil of the Daleks being found in Africa is a lot less than finding Marco Polo in Africa. My idea being that "If you need to Speculate, then please Speculate smartly!" But I'm no longer optimistic that it does any good. Too many people aren't willing to consider the facts, and trying to combat rampant rumors with facts just continues the conversation ... it doesn't give people the incentive to just relax and wait. It just gives them incentive to keep running circles. I want to contribute to the conversation, but not at the risk of any damage to negotiations (if there are any). As much as stupid rumors tend to bother me (and they're getting really stupid), it's probably time to just let it go and close the window until another day. That said, I would never had posted anything about this if it wasn't for whom it was coming from. Rich Johnson is someone who has a lot of good sources who have been fairly accurate in the past. Bleeding Cool was where I first heard the reports that Brian Michael Bendis would be jumping from the Avengers books at Marvel to the X-Men books. He's also been pretty good at detailing the ongoing disaster that is DC Comics. So this isn't someone who just picks an internet rumor and reports on it, unless he has some kind of source to back him up. He also leaked the news that a notable character was going to turn out to have been replaced by an alien long before news about the Secret Invasion crossover event happened ay Marvel. He was also the first person that I know of to report stories about Neil Gaiman writing for Doctor Who. So he apparently has (or at least had at one point) sources connected to the series as well. I was willing to go out on a limb to talk about this in the forums because of Rich's previous record. It's not perfect, but he's been more right than wrong. And I'm sorry if It sounds like I'm repeating myself over this. Then again, I'm apparently not the only one here doing so. The problem here is that some people will dismiss everything out of hand, even with numerous people quoting the same story. One of the biggest reasons that sources can't be named is to avoid getting people into trouble. That does seem rather ironic given the information has been leaked, but it's not in mine or other people's interests to out the sources of the current story. It is however in the interests of fans to let them know there is good news around the corner. Also, the idea that fan speculation will stop negotiations is pure fiction. Fan opinion is not official and only when an official outlet writes about it is there potential for problems to occur. Let's be fair, this speculation is neither silly nor dangerous. Official negotiations would not be affected by what is written on here or Gallifrey Base. Just looking at the numbers, there are 1303 members on here, and 70266 members on GB. Those are numbers from around the world. This forum's members make up about 1 millionth of the entire world population. How big a story do you think this therefore is? This missing episodes lark is therefore a very specialist interest when looking at the global population. I do then think that people are rather over-egging this "danger". All I know is that several sources are certain there is a cache of episodes, how many are or aren't DW is irrelevant. By certain, I mean there is no shadow of a doubt here in their minds. Whether others choose to believe this or not for me doesn't matter, all I know is that I am convinced. Others can make their own mind up.
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Post by richardwoods on Jun 14, 2013 18:51:20 GMT
That said, I would never had posted anything about this if it wasn't for whom it was coming from. Rich Johnson is someone who has a lot of good sources who have been fairly accurate in the past. Bleeding Cool was where I first heard the reports that Brian Michael Bendis would be jumping from the Avengers books at Marvel to the X-Men books. He's also been pretty good at detailing the ongoing disaster that is DC Comics. So this isn't someone who just picks an internet rumor and reports on it, unless he has some kind of source to back him up. He also leaked the news that a notable character was going to turn out to have been replaced by an alien long before news about the Secret Invasion crossover event happened ay Marvel. He was also the first person that I know of to report stories about Neil Gaiman writing for Doctor Who. So he apparently has (or at least had at one point) sources connected to the series as well. I was willing to go out on a limb to talk about this in the forums because of Rich's previous record. It's not perfect, but he's been more right than wrong. And I'm sorry if It sounds like I'm repeating myself over this. Then again, I'm apparently not the only one here doing so. The problem here is that some people will dismiss everything out of hand, even with numerous people quoting the same story. One of the biggest reasons that sources can't be named is to avoid getting people into trouble. That does seem rather ironic given the information has been leaked, but it's not in mine or other people's interests to out the sources of the current story. It is however in the interests of fans to let them know there is good news around the corner. Also, the idea that fan speculation will stop negotiations is pure fiction. Fan opinion is not official and only when an official outlet writes about it is there potential for problems to occur. Let's be fair, this speculation is neither silly nor dangerous. Official negotiations would not be affected by what is written on here or Gallifrey Base. Just looking at the numbers, there are 1303 members on here, and 70266 members on GB. Those are numbers from around the world. This forum's members make up about 1 millionth of the entire world population. How big a story do you think this therefore is? This missing episodes lark is therefore a very specialist interest when looking at the global population. I do then think that people are rather over-egging this "danger". All I know is that several sources are certain there is a cache of episodes, how many are or aren't DW is irrelevant. By certain, I mean there is no shadow of a doubt here in their minds. Whether others choose to believe this or not for me doesn't matter, all I know is that I am convinced. Others can make their own mind up. Good point, I must admit that I was a bit surprised that anyone would think that discussing rumours of recovery of missing episodes on a missing episodes forum could be dangerous to recovery of missing episodes. Do the people supposedly holding the episodes participate on, or read the forum? I would say probably not. Again why do we participate in the forum in the first place? Surely discussing info on missing episodes would be high on anyone's list of reasons?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 19:01:36 GMT
The problem here is that some people will dismiss everything out of hand, even with numerous people quoting the same story. One of the biggest reasons that sources can't be named is to avoid getting people into trouble. That does seem rather ironic given the information has been leaked, but it's not in mine or other people's interests to out the sources of the current story. It is however in the interests of fans to let them know there is good news around the corner. Also, the idea that fan speculation will stop negotiations is pure fiction. Fan opinion is not official and only when an official outlet writes about it is there potential for problems to occur. Let's be fair, this speculation is neither silly nor dangerous. Official negotiations would not be affected by what is written on here or Gallifrey Base. Just looking at the numbers, there are 1303 members on here, and 70266 members on GB. Those are numbers from around the world. This forum's members make up about 1 millionth of the entire world population. How big a story do you think this therefore is? This missing episodes lark is therefore a very specialist interest when looking at the global population. I do then think that people are rather over-egging this "danger". All I know is that several sources are certain there is a cache of episodes, how many are or aren't DW is irrelevant. By certain, I mean there is no shadow of a doubt here in their minds. Whether others choose to believe this or not for me doesn't matter, all I know is that I am convinced. Others can make their own mind up. Good point, I must admit that I was a bit surprised that anyone would think that discussing rumours of recovery of missing episodes on a missing episodes forum could be dangerous to recovery of missing episodes. Do the people supposedly holding the episodes participate on, or read the forum? I would say probably not. Again why do we participate in the forum in the first place? Surely discussing info on missing episodes would be high on anyone's list of reasons? I'm honestly kinda doubtful that 60-70 year old former BBC engineers spend their days on the internet lurking in Doctor Who online forums. I just do. They're busy looking at pictures of their grandkids on Facebook or something.
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Post by Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy on Jun 14, 2013 19:05:44 GMT
The problem here is that some people will dismiss everything out of hand, even with numerous people quoting the same story. One of the biggest reasons that sources can't be named is to avoid getting people into trouble. That does seem rather ironic given the information has been leaked, but it's not in mine or other people's interests to out the sources of the current story. It is however in the interests of fans to let them know there is good news around the corner. Also, the idea that fan speculation will stop negotiations is pure fiction. Fan opinion is not official and only when an official outlet writes about it is there potential for problems to occur. Let's be fair, this speculation is neither silly nor dangerous. Official negotiations would not be affected by what is written on here or Gallifrey Base. Just looking at the numbers, there are 1303 members on here, and 70266 members on GB. Those are numbers from around the world. This forum's members make up about 1 millionth of the entire world population. How big a story do you think this therefore is? This missing episodes lark is therefore a very specialist interest when looking at the global population. I do then think that people are rather over-egging this "danger". All I know is that several sources are certain there is a cache of episodes, how many are or aren't DW is irrelevant. By certain, I mean there is no shadow of a doubt here in their minds. Whether others choose to believe this or not for me doesn't matter, all I know is that I am convinced. Others can make their own mind up. Good point, I must admit that I was a bit surprised that anyone would think that discussing rumors of recovery of missing episodes on a missing episodes forum could be dangerous to recovery of missing episodes. Do the people supposedly holding the episodes participate on, or read the forum? I would say probably not. Again why do we participate in the forum in the first place? Surely discussing info on missing episodes would be high on anyone's list of reasons? The danger comes in how a collector determines the worth of his material. Anyone with a collection will use the internet to determine if what they have is worth something or not. I do it with baseball cards, pogs, and other collectibles. If a collector in Africa is made aware that that the BBC is interested in his films, he may check to see if there is a satisfactory reason to give his prints to them. If he realizes, from the voracious conversations, that the films could be worth more than he thought then he'll cancel any deal or negotiation and start from a more expensive stand point. Danger also comes from the sudden revelation of who the collector is. When A Whole Scene was discovered, the collector was harassed into giving his film back. That was certainly not a comforting situation to be in, and other collectors may determine that they would rather walk away then having to deal with that abuse. And I believe that it would be very likely that a collector with films he knows is missing would visit this website. If I had missing films, I would be intimately aware of the community dedicated to missing episodes.
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Post by Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy on Jun 14, 2013 19:07:40 GMT
I'm honestly kinda doubtful that 60-70 year old former BBC engineers spend their days on the internet lurking in Doctor Who online forums. I just do. They're busy looking at pictures of their grandkids on Facebook or something. Stereotype. I know of plenty of 60 and 70 year olds who use the internet on a regular basis and know what a forum or message board is. Though to be fair I know plenty of 60 to 70 year old who don't even know how to hold a mouse.
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Post by John Brew on Jun 14, 2013 19:22:48 GMT
It's very interesting to read all of the comments here. I didn't understand why talking about missing episodes on this forum would potentially create an issue in recovering them. Unless the person holding them is a fan who is searching the forums and knows that they are missing and wants to hold on to something that the rest of us don't have, is it really a problem? Many people who have returned episodes didn't even know that they had missing episodes. And let's face it, if there is a fan holding on to missing episodes, they won't part with them whether we discuss it or not.
That being said, I want so much to believe that there is a mother lode of episodes coming back, but we all know that the odds are not in our favor. I'll be very happy if we get one or two and ecstatic if there's even more. For now I'm willing to hope and dream that something great is about to turn up and I'll just enjoy speculating that some of the stories that I want to see might be about to make a reappearance. If they don't we're still where we've been and if they do, well, I'll be quite giddy!
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Post by Daniel Hornby on Jun 14, 2013 19:26:53 GMT
Good point, I must admit that I was a bit surprised that anyone would think that discussing rumors of recovery of missing episodes on a missing episodes forum could be dangerous to recovery of missing episodes. Do the people supposedly holding the episodes participate on, or read the forum? I would say probably not. Again why do we participate in the forum in the first place? Surely discussing info on missing episodes would be high on anyone's list of reasons? The danger comes in how a collector determines the worth of his material. Anyone with a collection will use the internet to determine if what they have is worth something or not. I do it with baseball cards, pogs, and other collectibles. If a collector in Africa is made aware that that the BBC is interested in his films, he may check to see if there is a satisfactory reason to give his prints to them. If he realizes, from the voracious conversations, that the films could be worth more than he thought then he'll cancel any deal or negotiation and start from a more expensive stand point. Danger also comes from the sudden revelation of who the collector is. When A Whole Scene was discovered, the collector was harassed into giving his film back. That was certainly not a comforting situation to be in, and other collectors may determine that they would rather walk away then having to deal with that abuse. And I believe that it would be very likely that a collector with films he knows is missing would visit this website. If I had missing films, I would be intimately aware of the community dedicated to missing episodes. Well let's take your scenario for a second Mark. The fact that the BBC/professionals are involved already suggests that the owner knows their value. Even if he/she doesn't and then later does, would the BBC walk away and say the guy wanted too much money? That is doubtful, because if the BBC hasn't had enough hate about junking them 40 years ago, they would do when it was revealed it let them slip through their fingers. I would also say to those that blabber on about the BBC not paying for its films, that until that scenario is tested, it's all well and good, but if 10, 20 or 50 appear, would the BBC then refuse? Think about the potential sales from the releases. They could easily make their money back, if it meant completing multiple serials.
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Post by richardwoods on Jun 14, 2013 19:37:53 GMT
Good point, I must admit that I was a bit surprised that anyone would think that discussing rumors of recovery of missing episodes on a missing episodes forum could be dangerous to recovery of missing episodes. Do the people supposedly holding the episodes participate on, or read the forum? I would say probably not. Again why do we participate in the forum in the first place? Surely discussing info on missing episodes would be high on anyone's list of reasons? The danger comes in how a collector determines the worth of his material. Anyone with a collection will use the internet to determine if what they have is worth something or not. I do it with baseball cards, pogs, and other collectibles. If a collector in Africa is made aware that that the BBC is interested in his films, he may check to see if there is a satisfactory reason to give his prints to them. If he realizes, from the voracious conversations, that the films could be worth more than he thought then he'll cancel any deal or negotiation and start from a more expensive stand point. Danger also comes from the sudden revelation of who the collector is. When A Whole Scene was discovered, the collector was harassed into giving his film back. That was certainly not a comforting situation to be in, and other collectors may determine that they would rather walk away then having to deal with that abuse. And I believe that it would be very likely that a collector with films he knows is missing would visit this website. If I had missing films, I would be intimately aware of the community dedicated to missing episodes. I suppose the opposite could also be true in that in by stumbling across our comments, an individual who realises that the dusty film cans in his attic were important missing heritage could feel that by making an altruistic gesture and returning the films to the BBC it would put him in a good light and in many ways would be a very satisfying feeling. I know that a lot of people are motivated by money and the instinct to hoard, but it is important to remember that not everyone is wired that way.
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Post by Tim Burrows on Jun 14, 2013 19:42:57 GMT
I'm beginning to wonder who doesn't know a trustworthy source!
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Post by Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy on Jun 14, 2013 19:43:18 GMT
I suppose the opposite could also be true in that in by stumbling across our comments, an individual who realises that the dusty film cans in his attic were important missing heritage could feel that by making an altruistic gesture and returning the films to the BBC it would put him in a good light and in many ways would be a very satisfying feeling. I know that a lot of people are motivated by money and the instinct to hoard, but it is important to remember that not everyone is wired that way. True. I'm poor, but if I found out that a film I held was missing material I'd offer it over immediately.
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