Questions re surviving episodes

[Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy]

The Crusades 3, Underwater Menace 3, Moonbase 2 & 4, Faceless Ones 1, Enemy 3, and all the Invasion episodes were found in the BBC audit of 1978 and immediately added to the Film & Video Tape Library. Where they found these episodes I'm not sure, and if they were overseas reels or not I'm not positive. But they were some of the first episodes "recovered". However, since they were already at the BBC one could argue they were never really lost.

Faceless Ones 3 and Evil of the Daleks 2 were returned by a film collector in 1987. I'm not sure how he acquired them or where the recovery team thinks they originated from.

Wheel in Space 3 was returned by a collector in 1983. Again, I'm not sure how he acquired it or where the recovery team thinks they originated from.

dwclips.steve-p.org/intro.htm is a good source of known clips for missing episodes.

[Jon Preddle]

Nov 22, 2012 16:58:50 GMT @james said:

On various pages of this forum it has been said that the surviving Ice Warriors prints are PROBABLY returned from Gibraltar ... and the Web of Fear 1 is PROBABLY returned from Australia.

Re Ice Warriors, I think that idea's been dismissed - they were cutting copies that the BBC always had, while, Web of Fear might be from Australia.

So are the below episodes most likely from the 1975 Australian returns?

The Underwater Menace 3 - no, the ABC ep was cut, the one held isn't

The Moonbase 2 and 4 - possibly

The Faceless Ones 1 and 3 - ep 3 possibly, but not ep 1 as the cut ABC copy also exists

The Evil of the Daleks 2 - possibly

The Invasion 2,3,5,6,7,8 - no, because some of the ABC eps were cut, and these are not. One of the eps was on a A+B reel, like Ice Warriors, so it's probably a retained cutting copy

Wheel in Space 3 - possibly also ex-ABC

[Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy]

Jon: The Australian and New Zealand censor clips act as a fingerprint, don't they. Are the Faceless Ones 1 and Underwater Menace 2 the only reels from ABC known for sure to exist? Or are there others that we're absolutely positive they came from ABC?

[Jon Preddle]

Nov 22, 2012 18:27:49 GMT Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy said:

Jon: The Australian and New Zealand censor clips act as a fingerprint, don't they. Are the Faceless Ones 1 and Underwater Menace 2 the only reels from ABC known for sure to exist? Or are there others that we're absolutely positive they came from ABC?

Others: Celestial Toymaker ep 4, a redundant copy of The Chase ep 1 and War Machines ep 2, oh, and Air Lock (two words!)

[Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy]

Jon: What is it about Air Lock that makes them so sure it's an ABC print? Other than turning up with an obvious ABC print of Underwater Menace.

Also, I read somewhere that Celestial Toymaker was found in ABC but it was thought that maybe it was the Singapore reel sent to ABC by mistake and simply put into storage.

Still, that's a nice group of episodes from ABC. Gives me some hope that Paul and the others are right and a few more will pop up here and there.

[nicholasrferrara]

Am I mistaken in thinking that bicycled prints could have been returned to Australia before being sent to the BBC also negating a portion of this?

[stevendoig]

this is all very interesting! Could it turn out that the majority of the 47 episodes found in the film library (bar the 35mm prints obviously) were cutting prints always retained by the BBC?

[Jon Preddle]

Nov 22, 2012 19:34:52 GMT stevendoig said:

this is all very interesting! Could it turn out that the majority of the 47 episodes found in the film library (bar the 35mm prints obviously) were cutting prints always retained by the BBC?

That could indeed be the case. If only the film cans and labels were kept / checked / notated / photographed the same way those ones from Ice Wariors and Fury were ...

[Jon Preddle]

Nov 22, 2012 19:24:41 GMT Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy said:

Jon: What is it about Air Lock that makes them so sure it's an ABC print? Other than turning up with an obvious ABC print of Underwater Menace.

Also, I read somewhere that Celestial Toymaker was found in ABC but it was thought that maybe it was the Singapore reel sent to ABC by mistake and simply put into storage.

IIRC, Air Lock still had an ABC leader on it....

Re Toymaker being from Singapore, that was an idea I once floated on the BroaDWcast site, but later dismissed when the "ABC 1975" list was published.

[Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy]

Nov 22, 2012 19:41:30 GMT Jon Preddle said:

IIRC, Air Lock still had an ABC leader on it....

Re Toymaker being from Singapore, that was an idea I once floated on the BroaDWcast site, but later dismissed when the "ABC 1975" list was published.

Ah! Yes. An ABC leader on the film would certainly prove it.

Ah. The Doctor Who Nexus still lists the Celestial Toymaker theory in its timeline, that's why I was confused.

[Jon Preddle]

Nov 22, 2012 19:52:16 GMT Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy said:

The Doctor Who Nexus still lists the Celestial Toymaker theory in its timeline, that's why I was confused.

They probably got it out of Wiped, which (may have) got it from BroaDWcast!

[Ross Mann]

Was the Pilot Episode reel amongst the "cutting copies" aswell?
And was this originally produced with V/T and later telerecorded?
I only ask, as I still haven't gotten round to aquiring a copy of WIPED! And I recall that the pilot looked very sharp on the original "Edge of Destruction" VHS, I can't speak for the version that was part of "The Hartnell Years" tape though.
Is it also likely that the two DMP episodes discovered in the early 80's (and possibly Ep 2) were part of the set of viewing copies that were rejected by Australian Censors in the sixties?

[Jon Preddle]

Nov 22, 2012 20:58:00 GMT Ross Mann said:

Was the Pilot Episode reel amongst the "cutting copies" aswell?

Is it also likely that the two DMP episodes discovered in the early 80's (and possibly Ep 2) were part of the set of viewing copies that were rejected by Australian Censors in the sixties?

I have no idea about the Pilot... But unlikely to have been a "cutting copy" as those were (we think) created for overseas copies.

Those two Master Plan eps may very well have come back from Australia. But again, no one bothered at the time to record what was on the cans, labels, leaders, in order to determine their point of origin ... It was a case of "we've got em back, who cares from where ..."

[Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy]

Surely they still HAVE the Masterplan reels and their cans.

[Ross Mann]

Thanks Jon

I'm not sure what the thought's on those DMP copies are Mark...
Fairly sure Damain Shannahan (hope I spelt that correctly, apologies otherwise) would have looked into those around the same time his research led to the "censor clips" discovery in the 1990's...