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Post by Andrew Dunn on Sept 30, 2012 18:06:28 GMT
Hi, de-lurking for only my second post!
Forgive me if this idea has been discussed before but I was intrigued to read about the guy who brought those film prints from the skip company owners widow and this led me to thinking about the number of missing episodes that might still be out there amongst the film collector community who may know what they have but have decided for whatever reason to keep it to themselves.
Basically if we assume these collectors exist, its also reasonable to assume that they are still pursuing their hobby and that they would be interested in BBC films in general not just Dr Who, so why doesn't the BBC make use of the films it does possess especially where they have duplicated copies?
We have all read on this forum about duplicate film prints occasionally turning up, 16mm film prints of Doctor Who episodes will sell for hundreds of pounds even if they are non missing material so what if the BBC makes it known to the film collector community that it will give away a film print but ONLY in exchange for a copy of a film print that is missing?
Example: Lets say a collector has Reign of Terror episodes 4 & 5 but has nothing from the Romans. Doctor Who prints rarely come up for sale so he only gets to buy one once in a blue moon and then he has to pay hard cash, the BBC offers to give him a copy of The Romans on 16mm film in exchange for loaning the missing Reign episodes so the restoration team can take a copy before returning it to the collector. That way the collector gets something he doesn't already have but looses nothing in the process, the BBC gets it's hands on missing material without loosing anything in the process, except a set of duplicate prints. No money has even had to be exchanged, this could work for any missing BBC stuff, Dad's Army, Steptoe, Likely Lads etc
It might act as an enticement to the collector who is usually wary of giving anything away! it would also enable a way for the BBC to improve its external contacts with the collecting community and we might find out what if anything is still out their. That mystery person who brought those film prints from the skip company widow may not be so mysteries for long!
How the message gets put out to the film collector community I'm not sure but I cannot see that it would do any harm to try.
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Post by Andrew Dunn on Sept 30, 2012 18:41:14 GMT
Point taken, but I would expect it to run along the lines of 'one of ours for one of yours' no negotiation.
If the collector does not possess anything of interest then its not a deal to begin with, if they do they have to prove it or again its a no deal.
The BBC could state up front what prints they would be offering so the collector knows what they're potential going to be exchanging.
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Post by Andrew Dunn on Sept 30, 2012 19:07:06 GMT
I'm not sure that I'm asking for one single person to organise this, perhaps I'm being naive but surely the BBC can decide what to do with a single set of prints it owns?
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Post by John Wall on Sept 30, 2012 19:25:35 GMT
The view of those in the know, i.e., Paul, is that the best prospect for future returns is private collectors. However, if we look at what's come back in the past few years they've been from collectors who didn't know that they had something important and were happy for them to be copied; the 2011 recoveries are an excellent example of that.
The "problem" is the, possibly hypothetical, collector who's got something that they know is missing but want to keep it for themselves - "City of Death" has been mentioned several times here.
If there is a collector out there with, say, TP4 or Evil 7 and who is quite happy to hoard them, what could entice them to return it ? Would a set of high quality dupes of every Hartnell and Troughton episode currently surviving persuade them to give up something they believe to be unique ?
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Post by Steven Sigel on Sept 30, 2012 19:35:31 GMT
I don't believe for a minute that there is anyone out there knowingly holding Dr. Who prints that the BBC doesn't have.
More importantly, if there was such a "hoarder" who refused to just loan the print back, what makes you think that a copy of a print that already exists would make any difference to them?
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Post by Andrew Dunn on Sept 30, 2012 19:45:03 GMT
OK, if I'm going to concede then let me just say this...
It was the BBC following policy in the 60's & 70's that led to a lot of these programs being lost in the first place, now in 2012 with a diminishing window of opportunity to recover further missing episodes surely something more radical is needed?
My initial post was to provide a possibly solution for contacting the 'hoarder' types, as John Wall just pointed out the known collectors have happily given up what they have, as Paul seems to think any further possible returns will only come from the collecting community then this would 'cut to the chase' so to speak, if there are no hoarders then it's not an issue if there are then a dialogue might lead to something.
As for why an existing print make any difference then I would have to ask why people pay good money for an existing 16mm film print on e-bay when the DVD is already out? it's because they are collectors and we collectors are always buying stuff we already own!!
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Post by Andrew Dunn on Sept 30, 2012 20:00:29 GMT
My post wasn't about do hoarders exist or not, the trigger for this post was Paul's tale on another thread that suggested a recent private sale film prints that possibly contained a missing Dad's Army episode amougst severval BBC films sold off by a Skip company bosses widow (the guy that used to make the collections from the BBC way back when they were throwing stuff out) now either I miss-understood what was being said or someone has brought those films knowing what he was getting.
Apparently Paul just missed the sale by a few days having being tipped off by a friend.
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Post by Ash Stewart on Sept 30, 2012 20:02:30 GMT
Fair enough, but what your really asking for, is one guy to deal with something the BBC owns, and remember that the C of that acronym is company, and fair trade really isn't logical when there are cruel buffons out there who would just try to milk and harrass innocent people. I understand the concepts of fair trade, but a single guy representing the whole BBC, doing what your suggesting, is practically impossible. Actually, the "C" of "BBC" stands for "Corporation"...  |
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Post by Ash Stewart on Sept 30, 2012 20:15:27 GMT
My post wasn't about do hoarders exist or not, the trigger for this post was Paul's tale on another thread that suggested a recent private sale film prints that possibly contained a missing Dad's Army episode amougst severval BBC films sold off by a Skip company bosses widow (the guy that used to make the collections from the BBC way back when they were throwing stuff out) now either I miss-understood what was being said or someone has brought those films knowing what he was getting. Yeah... that guy would know exactly what he was buying once he found out the titles of the episodes on the cans and so on. But there's no way we can know, with the information we have, whether anything was missing or not. May have been, may not have been. And if he was a proper, serious, collector he'll be keeping a hold on them whatever they were. Anyhow, returning to this; The thing is, if there were such a person with missing material they'd be well aware of its value and know that the value of an episode that's currently believed missing would be rather more than that of an episode held safely in the archives. Letting the BBC copy these hypothetical missing Reign of Terror episodes would instantly cause a drop in the amount of money that they could sell them for at such a time as they might want to liquidate their asset. If I were a hoarder of missing episodes, I wouldn't trade for existing material... the only people I'd trade with would be someone else with missing material. And I should expect the number of such people is very, very, small indeed... I think the type of people who wouldn't be worried about the money their print is worth (which is essentially every private collector located with a missing Dr Who to date) would be willing to let the BBC copy said episodes without an incentive like a copy of some other episode. |
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Post by Andrew Dunn on Sept 30, 2012 20:38:41 GMT
Deepsteve....remember this was an 'idea' and sometimes good ideas come from 'thinking outside the box' or lead to other ideas that work, maybe it had no chance of working but ideas and discussion is what the forum is about.
Andrew
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Post by Kelly Davies on Oct 2, 2012 23:22:43 GMT
@deepsteve
Stifling enthusiasm with rude condescending responses does nothing for the cause.
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Post by Stephen Neve on Oct 3, 2012 17:40:51 GMT
One thing that might work would be for the BBC to keep quiet on announcing a find after duplication in order to give the collector hoarding missing material time to sell the print at the price they are asking.
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Post by dennywilson on Oct 3, 2012 17:55:04 GMT
I don't believe for a minute that there is anyone out there knowingly holding Dr. Who prints that the BBC doesn't have. That's the key point - "Knowingly" |
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Post by Stephen Neve on Oct 3, 2012 19:03:16 GMT
I don't believe for a minute that there is anyone out there knowingly holding Dr. Who prints that the BBC doesn't have. That's the key point - "Knowingly" It's been done before. Not with Doctor Who but other missing shows. There have been collectors in the past that have not always been willing to return missing material. |
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Post by Richard Tipple on Oct 3, 2012 22:04:43 GMT
I actually think it's not a bad idea, Andrew. But I think the best shot of getting anything returned is pretty simple - if you hear anything, approach Paul V. He's an expert and has overseen many returns in the past. If the collector in question wants something special, then I'm sure PV would move hell and high water if it meant getting back some missing material.
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