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Post by Christopher Perry on Jul 13, 2012 6:06:58 GMT
I have been trying to work out the best wording for some of these 'finds'.
Are they finds? Some are truly miraculous - A-R and early ABC finds were assumed completely catalogued and published in the A for Andromeda book. So they are true finds.
But material either passed on to the NFA for storage or digital transfer? It's like they got lost in the system. ITV saying they are unaware they actually sent the tapes. I have donor companies telling me they have no record of making donations, and they don't have a copy. They are now contacting the NFA to get hold of copies of their own material. Clearly Lostshows was wrong, which is a fault on our part. But could we have known about these finds? I'm not sure how we would have known.
In the old days of analogue printouts we could go through everything, sitting in TV vaults, but modern databases, you have to ask the question and often they say things that aren't true - records wrongly logged or no material kept.
I have decided to be prudent, these are 'titles re-discovered within known archives'. :-)
c
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Post by John Green on Jul 13, 2012 7:35:49 GMT
There's a song in 'Oklahoma' where everyone sings about 'Poor Jud',and how he was the nicest,most generous man anyone could hope to meet...except he never let it show by word or deed.
Any archive which is under- or un-catalogued is an oubliette-a dungeon where the prisoners are left,forgotten even by their captors.Even if the recordings have been kept safe and cool for 40 years,it's not good enough if the world doesn't know that they're there. So even when it's just a case of saying "It's always been known that it exists,we just need to change the status at Lostshows",that's a victory,too. Each find-in fact each show brought to light-means the possibility of reappraising actors,writers,directors...as well as being entertained.We have the chance(or at least the possibility) to look at shows that have been unseen for half a century.Someone who went through the Spanish imperial records of the 16th century described how he was opening up parchments that were spilling sand that had been used as blotting-paper,to soak up excess ink all those years ago.
I'm very pleased about the material that's been (and I think this is a good word) uncovered.I've got a friend who likes to say "You people haven't "found" this stuff; it's always been there."Well,we could hardly have found it if it wasn't!
Now all we need is to make old-time TV DVDs exempt from VAT,and from the necessity of being submitted for censorship,with all the costs involved.It's part of our heritage.If these tapes were buildings,there'd be preservation orders and subsidies.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2012 9:55:26 GMT
Quite relevant, John! My own view has always been that it should all be treated as heritage and consequently preserved for that reason.
Thanks for the feedback, Chris, although I don't think Kal / Lost Shows can be held to blame for material wrongly catalogued. It just went missing in the system and you couldn't possibly know that!
One thing, Chris: you mentioned Rediffusion material. Has there been much come to light? Just reading down the BFI thread, I can't see much, although there's large amounts of material from other companies that's very welcome. The fact that all this material has finally been uncovered though is very good news indeed. Well done to Kal and to all on the forum who helped to bring it to attention.
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Post by Pete Morris on Jul 13, 2012 11:53:59 GMT
Christopher Perry, You could use the word 'recovery' would that do?
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Post by Christopher Perry on Jul 13, 2012 15:34:06 GMT
I've always thought the word recovery isn't right in many contexts. If I go somewhere, get something and move it physically I have recovered it from where it was. Or if I recover something believed lost, but the NFA have not found these lost shows, they have always been there and on their catalogue, they just didn't know anyone was looking for them. No one made that connection. NOne of these shows will be shown at MBW 2013, they aren't recoveries.
But in these cases nothing is physically recovered. We have discovered the NFA have things but no one is asking for them back.
Except us who are asking for copies of some stuff, but that's not a recovery, that's a duplication of an existing tape.
c
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Post by Pete Morris on Jul 13, 2012 16:28:45 GMT
" NOne of these shows will be shown at MBW 2013, they aren't recoveries. "
I don't understand that. They are things that were once missing from the TV companies' archives, believed to have been wiped. You'd probably find a junking date among the files for the BBC shows. Why isn't this something that MBW would show?
I've never actually been to a MBW. Isn't this the sort of thing they'd show? If not, what DO they show?
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Post by John Green on Jul 13, 2012 17:37:18 GMT
I'll leave it to others to answer the MBW questions,but I suspect that some of this material-a little of it at least-will be released on DVD,which means a lot more people will be able to see it.
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Post by John Green on Jul 13, 2012 18:40:53 GMT
Am I right in thinking that a lot of the 'Douglas Fairbanks Presents' were no-shows at the BFI?
If so,there are quite a few of the missing ones at the UCLA.,including:
King High (8/1/1956) Guilt. (15/2/56) Ship's Doctor. (29/2/56). International Settlement. (16/3/56) The Dark Lake. (28/3/56).Etc.
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Post by Gary Wilson on Jul 13, 2012 19:38:38 GMT
The UCLA ones are already known about John. The list suggested at the BFI were different ones, but they might be at the BFI but under a different listing....someone listed some turning up as , I think, Saturday Night Theatre or something like that.
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Post by John Green on Jul 13, 2012 20:49:42 GMT
Right.Thanks!
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Post by Pete Morris on Jul 13, 2012 21:26:52 GMT
Out of the list of DFP episodes, they have the following :
27 The Hideaway 35mm
28 The Auction 16mm
33 The Milkman 35mm
36 A Line In The Snow 35mm
40 Scheherezade 16mm
42 Four Farewells In Venice 35mm
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Post by John Green on Jul 14, 2012 17:23:47 GMT
'Song by Song by Dietz' (15/10/1978) and 'Song by Song by Harburg' (8/10/1978) have turned up at the BFI,I believe. The latter has Leonard Rossiter as Groucho Marx,singing 'Lydia,the Tattooed Lady',so fingers crossed.
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Post by markboulton on Jul 14, 2012 18:36:43 GMT
I have been trying to work out the best wording for some of these 'finds'. Are they finds? Some are truly miraculous - A-R and early ABC finds were assumed completely catalogued and published in the A for Andromeda book. So they are true finds. But material either passed on to the NFA for storage or digital transfer? It's like they got lost in the system. ITV saying they are unaware they actually sent the tapes. I have donor companies telling me they have no record of making donations, and they don't have a copy. They are now contacting the NFA to get hold of copies of their own material. Clearly Lostshows was wrong, which is a fault on our part. But could we have known about these finds? I'm not sure how we would have known. In the old days of analogue printouts we could go through everything, sitting in TV vaults, but modern databases, you have to ask the question and often they say things that aren't true - records wrongly logged or no material kept. I have decided to be prudent, these are 'titles re-discovered within known archives'. :-) c I think the best word for cases like this would be "located". i.e. "It wasn't missing, the holders never knew it was thought to be, but we in the Missing Episodes community have now determined its location".
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Post by John Green on Jul 14, 2012 23:34:23 GMT
'Sing Choirs of Angels' (24/12/1973).with The Settlers.
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Post by Nigel Lamb on Jul 15, 2012 10:40:25 GMT
All of these programmes from this list taken from the Lost Shows site are listed as held by the BFI except for one episode being Eureka from 20/9/71.
So the whole series bar 1 exists!!!!
Missing or incomplete episodes for programme YAK.
26.07.71 The Sea Shell (missing) 02.08.71 To Catch A Fish (missing) 09.08.71 Yak And The Dragon (missing) 16.08.71 Vulture's Vegetarian Society (missing) 23.08.71 Yak In Bagdad (missing) 30.08.71 Yakelangelo (missing) 06.09.71 Sea Gold (missing) 13.09.71 Great Expectations (missing) 20.09.71 Eureka (missing) 27.09.71 Yak In Bagdad (missing) 04.10.71 Carumba (missing) 11.10.71 Dr Vulture, I Presume (missing) 18.10.71 From Russia With Love (missing)
All 13 episodes are missing.
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