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Post by Pete Morris on May 14, 2012 19:56:59 GMT
All these threads announcing things found - where were they, and how did you manage to track them down?
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Post by Greg H on May 14, 2012 21:19:58 GMT
I kinda get the impression that some of it comes from online databases of collections that were previously obscure by not being very easy to search perhaps and a lot of dedication.
I have something i am chasing up in the near future but I don't hold out massive hopes.
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Post by John Green on May 14, 2012 21:43:12 GMT
Speaking as someone who's never actually found anything in this line...
One fertile source seems to be to search online catalogues of material held by institutions that have no connection with television per se.
For instance,ordinary human beings are fascinated by space-travel,the American West,Circus,Ballet,and the performing arts generally,canals,education,war...
Speaking of war,the recent discovery of an ancient This is Your Life at the Imperial War Museum was due to their interest in the recipient ,because he was a general,not because he later wrote and directed George Formby films (as he did),or because they love b&w telly.
It took me ages to work this out.Am I right,or am I right,as they say in 'The Singing Detective'?
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Post by John Green on May 14, 2012 21:46:06 GMT
I should have said "the recent discovery by Ray of an ancient 'This is Your Life'.
Apologies.
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Post by Ray Langstone (was saintsray) on May 14, 2012 23:11:57 GMT
Speaking as someone who's never actually found anything in this line... One fertile source seems to be to search online catalogues of material held by institutions that have no connection with television per se. For instance,ordinary human beings are fascinated by space-travel,the American West,Circus,Ballet,and the performing arts generally,canals,education,war... Speaking of war,the recent discovery of an ancient This is Your Life at the Imperial War Museum was due to their interest in the recipient ,because he was a general,not because he later wrote and directed George Formby films (as he did),or because they love b&w telly. It took me ages to work this out.Am I right,or am I right,as they say in 'The Singing Detective'? You're right! Most of my finds come from online databases. Obviously youtube as well. A couple of finds have come from neither (stuff I was alerted to by people), and many finds are with libraries that have no real interest in TV at all. Don't get me wrong, some are, like the overseas archive at UCLA or in the Antipodes, but most aren't, increasingly. I have something like another twenty possible finds that I am trying to get either dated or double checked that they are missing. Mainly docs or outtake footage from news and current affairs shows, very ""minority"" interest material, all of it. |
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Post by George D on May 15, 2012 21:18:04 GMT
Im hoping that once these things are located, they simply dont make an index card of its location while the library contents disappear.
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Post by Rob Moss on May 15, 2012 21:53:18 GMT
Im hoping that once these things are located, they simply dont make an index card of its location while the library contents disappear. This is a real problem - as I presume the majority of database-related finds aren't actually "recovered", is there not a real possibility that things may go walkies or get damaged being accessed..? |
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Post by Ray Langstone (was saintsray) on May 15, 2012 23:01:00 GMT
That is a problem.
Don't get me wrong, all of Kal's finds are recovered and a fair few of mine are too.
It's difficult to get an archive holder to chase up a recording.
Some archives are slightly pro-active (MACE is a good example).
I personally think (and I am being ridiculously biased here) that all the Regional archives and the BBC and ITN Source plus the archive holders of all the Regional ITV companies ought to employ me to find and recover things! (unfortunately I couldn't do it for free, I'm almost penniless right now....)
In the case of the TV companies, there is little to no budget to spend on recovering things.
Kaleidoscope to an amazing job recovering stuff, as do the Tim Disney archive, and APTS as well.
Some of the archive holders do get donations too. This I know. I have actually asked an archive holder for a list of their donations....no response yet.
In my own case, I wish I could spend more time RECOVERING footage as well as finding it. I have barely enough time as it is to try and discover stuff, and I think I do ok on one hour a day or so....but, like I said, I wish I could do more.
Bear in mind there are also somewhere around 50 possible finds (mostly very minority interest) I am still trying to check. That'll probably turn into 10 definites.
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Post by Simon Winters on May 16, 2012 11:34:55 GMT
Yes, it's very important to highlight the difference between what is these days called on this forum a 'find', and a traditionally recovered episode.
Kaleidoscope has for some years published a list of traditionally recovered television programmes - programmes which were once missing, but have now been officially returned to their proper archive or to the BFI. These were usually on 16mm film, sometimes on a master tape or an early domestic format.
This forum used to discuss these actual recoveries as and when they came about. The 'finds' ( to use this new expression) now coming in almost by the dozen on a daily basis really need to be kept in context. Until they have been fully identified, found to be actually missing and then returned to their proper archive, they are not recoveries.
This is not intended to be a criticism of any of the very good people who spend time searching Youtube and online databases. I thank these people very much for their research.
However, I do think that it could be time to have two missing tv sections on this forum - one for this massive amount of 'finds', and another one for the traditional recoveries, as it used to be on here.
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Post by Ray Langstone (was saintsray) on May 16, 2012 11:41:44 GMT
Yes, it's very important to highlight the difference between what is these days called on this forum a 'find', and a traditionally recovered episode. Kaleidoscope has for some years published a list of traditionally recovered television programmes - programmes which were once missing, but have now been officially returned to their proper archive or to the BFI. These were usually on 16mm film, sometimes on a master tape or an early domestic format. This forum used to discuss these actual recoveries as and when they came about. The 'finds' ( to use this new expression) now coming in almost by the dozen on a daily basis really need to be kept in context. Until they have been fully identified, found to be actually missing and then returned to their proper archive, they are not recoveries. This is not intended to be a criticism of any of the very good people who spend time searching Youtube and online databases. I thank these people very much for their research. However, I do think that it could be time to have two missing tv sections on this forum - one for this massive amount of 'finds', and another one for the traditional recoveries, as it used to be on here. On the list published on here and Wiped News in December any 'finds' are separated into DISCOVERIES and RECOVERIES. I am already doing that with this year's list too. |
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Post by Phil Leach on May 16, 2012 12:44:39 GMT
I think what Ray and others are doing here is really useful. Yes the vast majority of these items that are spotted on various web catalogues are not returned to the copyright holders. However in a lot of cases they are perfectly safe where they are. We know that material can be held in various facilities - the original copyright holder; national archives (BFI) or regional film archives plus the myriad of other professional archives who don't necessarily have film as their speciality.
What is useful about this web search is identifying where material is held and when the right project comes up we can then work with whoever is holding film for the mutual benefit of both organisations.
It must be also remembered that a lot of this material will be physically owned by the archives where it is held (not the copyright of course). They may have bought copies years ago or had prints deposited by third parties.
Just because the rights holders subsequently destroyed their master material (or never bothered to keep it in the first place) should not mean that the current archive that holds a copy should work at their own expense to give their copy back.
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Post by Robert Belford on May 16, 2012 13:44:28 GMT
I think some of the YouTube videos are not really "finds" at all because they have been uploaded by collectors and even people who are on this very forum. People who have the items catalogued and have looked after them better than the BBC or ITV companies did, hence them being missing in the first place.
Who is to say that returning things to the BBC, ITV, any other company, or NFTA ensures their safety? When all of them have a variable record...
Last year I gave the BBC a colour clip of their own (missing) local news. But when it appeared in the programme it had been turned black and white and an "old film" effect been applied to it! Did the production team put the colour clip into the archive or is the finished programme the only thing archived? Who knows. In the end, if they've ditched and wiped all the production materials, I may still have the only colour copy of it.
As I get older it's hard to know what to do for the best. I have lots of my own unique photo, film and video material. Where is it going to be once I've gone? I'm aware that some archives might not look after and preserve it longterm if it was given to them. It could all end up in a skip during a future clear out.
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Post by Ray Langstone (was saintsray) on May 16, 2012 13:47:57 GMT
I think some of the YouTube videos are not really "finds" at all because they have been uploaded by people who are on this very forum. People who have the items catalogued and have looked after them better than the BBC or ITV companies did, hence them being missing in the first place. Who is to say that returning things to the BBC, ITV, any other company, or NFTA ensures their safety? When all of them have a variable record... Last year I gave the BBC a colour clip of their own (missing) local news. But when it appeared in the programme it had been turned black and white and an "old film" effect been applied to it! Did the production team put the colour clip into the archive or is the finished programme the only thing archived? Who knows. In the end I may still have the only colour copy of it. These days, like at any time, we can only try and trust the various archive holders as best we can! What clip did you return, Robert? |
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Post by Robert Belford on May 16, 2012 13:52:54 GMT
A clip of Look North from 1981.
Anyway I applaud all your efforts Ray and like to hear the latest news!
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Post by Ray Langstone (was saintsray) on May 16, 2012 13:54:59 GMT
Do you know which edition? I'll add it to the list of known RECOVERIES!!!!!!!!!!
(and THANK YOU!)
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