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Post by John Green on Jan 9, 2012 12:51:49 GMT
Richard,I think I'd add to that that one would add in to the equation the number of countries known to have gone for the various series (again,this is in Marco Polo's favour) together with various viewing-prints PLUS the date of the missing episode.A Hartnell story had several years more to go missing before a proper recovery got instituted,than had the average Troughton.As it turned out,the newest discovery is now the oldest of the found Troughtons. That's why it's heartening that silent movies are still turning up,films that were made when Who wasn't a gleam in the BBC's eye!
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jan 10, 2012 20:40:46 GMT
I've asked before; does anyone have first hand knowledge of this [Master Plan 5 + 10] recovery? This question brings to mind something that has always puzzled me: When the two Master Plan eps were found, it seems that very little was done to fully record the whens, wheres, hows and whos of the recovery at the time. Most of the knowledge we have about these finds was done many years later, long after the fact, in hind-sight, and with foggy memories. The same with other recoveries: We generally know whens and wheres (and whos), but what of other important facts, like were the film leaders checked for tell-tale markings? Did the cans have any labels on them? Were there splices indicating ad break inserts? What else was found at the same time? (There was another programme in the Fury from the Deep can, but no one seems to have kept note of what that was!) Possible vital clues to where these films came from, lost, forgotten and undocumented...
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Jan 10, 2012 21:25:38 GMT
Possible vital clues to where these films came from, lost, forgotten and undocumented... Yes. Extremely frustrating...
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Post by Ronnie McDevitt on Jan 10, 2012 23:18:16 GMT
One thing I do recall shortly after the recovery of `Counter Plot' and `Escape Switch' was a report that one of the episodes was in a film can marked `The Abandoned Planet' sparking rumours this may also exist. Suspect it was another unfounded rumour though as has never been mentioned since.
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Post by Anthony Harvison on Jan 12, 2012 13:53:52 GMT
Almost all the accounts for the recovery of episodes 5 & 10 mention they were found in a church basement, but the actual locations to differ with each account. I've asked before; does anyone have first hand knowledge of this recovery? Didn't someone just explain that a few posts ago? the building used to belong to the BBC. They sold it to the religious group, but didn't bother clearing out all their property. Later, the new owners discovered some BBC film prints that had been left in the basement. It's not exactly the same as trying to figure out what happened in "Ghostlight"!
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Post by Gids Llewellyn on Jan 12, 2012 18:48:49 GMT
I've asked before; does anyone have first hand knowledge of this recovery? Didn't someone just explain that a few posts ago? the building used to belong to the BBC. They sold it to the religious group, but didn't bother clearing out all their property. Later, the new owners discovered some BBC film prints that had been left in the basement. It's not exactly the same as trying to figure out what happened in "Ghostlight"! The question was "does anyone have first hand knowledge" (and therefore probably more information) that's quite different from reciting the same known information over and over again...
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Post by George D on Jan 12, 2012 21:19:22 GMT
much better to leave it in the basement than to put it in the skips.
One of the things that never made sense to me is that they would destroy movies rather than allow them to be preserved by museums collectors, etc. Even if the films circulated, the owner would still not possess rights to do anything with them. especially it would be less of a concern if the station thought there was no more value in them.
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Post by Martin Dunne on Jan 12, 2012 22:48:12 GMT
To be precise ... On the Mormon Church recovery...I have read online that the story dosn't make sence, with the inference that it was cover for returning stolen material. Does anyone known any more about this? Having spoken directly to Steve Bryant about this (he was in charge of the F&VT Archive at the time), he confirms that the story is absolutely true as reported. The call came in that the film cans had been discovered and did the BBC want them back. Steve dispatched a colleague to go and pick them up and thus they were recovered. No cover stories here! Richard missingepisodes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=who&action=display&thread=3400&page=3
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Post by John Andersen on Jan 12, 2012 22:49:02 GMT
much better to leave it in the basement than to put it in the skips. One of the things that never made sense to me is that they would destroy movies rather than allow them to be preserved by museums collectors, etc. Even if the films circulated, the owner would still not possess rights to do anything with them. especially it would be less of a concern if the station thought there was no more value in them. They needed that space in the film can for something else. With the film can considered reusable, it was apparently worth more than the episode that was inside it. Although, I don't see many people wanting to get their hands on the empty film cans that used to contain The Power of the Daleks.
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Post by Martin Dunne on Jan 13, 2012 20:21:15 GMT
I've asked before; does anyone have first hand knowledge of this [Master Plan 5 + 10] recovery? This question brings to mind something that has always puzzled me: When the two Master Plan eps were found, it seems that very little was done to fully record the whens, wheres, hows and whos of the recovery at the time. This kind of goes to my question; in the eighties recovery was all in the shadow of incrimination. Today it's handled forensically because we're seeking more, not prosecution.
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Post by aronchallinger on Jan 15, 2012 14:39:37 GMT
Has it ever been confirmed as more than speculation that the property was an ex-BBC storage facility? I thought this was a possible explanation put forward, but was never confirmed? As no one seems to know the location of the find I guess its hard to verify what exactly the truth of the story is?
I am a Latter Day Saint (Mormon) so have always found the recovery of the episodes of Dalek Master plan of great interest. I joined the church about 20 years ago and have an interesting theory as to why the church may have had the films.
Anyway, to explain my theory I have to explain a little of the church organization. The Mormon Church leadership is based in Utah in the United States. Then throughout the world Church membership is divided into regions called Stakes. Within these Stakes, local membership is divided into areas called wards. Each ward has a meeting house called the Chapel and each Stake has a larger meeting house called the Stake Center. As the leadership of the Mormon church is based in the US, big Church meetings - called general conference - are recorded and televised worldwide so every member of the church may see them. Up until the 80's these meetings were recorded on 16mm film and shipped all over the world to be shown. Each Stake Center had a projector and facility to show these meetings. In the early 80's the church was very quick to change over to video and video projectors as the cost to make and ship videos was a lot cheaper than film prints.
As each Stake Center was sent its own set of prints they were generally watched in one or two sessions then stored in the stakes Family History Library. (Mormons are big on genealogy and we have Family History Libraries in every Stake, that are full of old records, census, micro phish, and now computers and other research material.) The family history libraries are usually large designated areas in Stake Centers, but often the basement in Chapels.
When I joined the church in 1993 I didn't really know any of this as I only ever saw general conference on video. When I moved in 1999 I then met every Sunday in the Stake Center rather than a smaller Chapel and was shocked to find that locked away in the Family History Center was a stash of about two hundred 16 mm films and a wonderfully maintained Bell and Howell projector. Yes, the first thing I did was look through every single print. About 90% of them were labeled and were general conferences and other religious films, the other 10% had the labels fallen and when I checked them they were all also religious films, and one episode of Lost in Space!
After asking round I found out that the projector was used most of the time for church related screenings, but once in a while something else may be shown at a Ward activity. I couldn't actually find anyone who remembered what exactly had ever been shown at these less formal activates but I presume this is why there was an episode of Lost in Space in the Stake Center!
If the location where the two recovered episodes of Doctor Who were found had been a Stake Center, it is quite possible that in the mid 80's when the church went from screening film to video all the redundant film tins would be thrown out. If in the course of lobbing out church films the people in charge of the clean out had found some BBC cans amongst them its very likely that they would have phoned the BBC and checked before the films were thrown out. The Doctor Who prints could have been there as someone may have had them and brought them in to show at one of the less formal church activates.
As I have an interest in old films I told my church leaders that I knew at some stage the films in the Stake Center would be thrown out because they took up so much space. Could I have first dibs when that happened? About 4 years ago that happened and I took all the film home and the projector, plus extra cans, shipping satchels and customs records of what was in the library, even the maintenance log of the projector. I also contacted all the local Family History Centers and Stake Centers to see if there was any others with interesting things stored away, but unfortunately there wasn't.
Anyway this is a long winded way of saying, I recovered a bunch of films from the church that had been kept up till recently. Is it worth calling a few of the Stake Centers/Family History libraries in the UK to see if any of them still have film stored away? All it would take is someone going through the phonebook and saying something along the lines of 'I heard that before the 1980's Stake Conference was shown on film projected in Stake centers, I was wondering if your Family History Center/Stake Center had kept any of these old films?' Usually the people who work at Family History Centers are volunteers and will bend over backwards to help you. Also they are generally older church members who would actually remember this type of thing, so could point you in the right direction if they did remember anything of interest. Its a very very slim hope that anything other than religious films would be found, but surely something worth doing be certain nothing is sitting in another Mormon basement?
Hope this is of interest, Aron
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Post by John F Brayshaw on Jan 15, 2012 20:05:02 GMT
Aron, would you know if there is any possibility of any 16 mm actually going back to Mormon archives in Utah?
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Post by aronchallinger on Jan 15, 2012 22:47:16 GMT
Aron, would you know if there is any possibility of any 16 mm actually going back to Mormon archives in Utah? No, I'm pretty sure that wouldn't have happened. The church would have kept a copy of each of the general conference films. But the local records I have don't show any films ever being returned to Salt Lake City. Films were sometimes lent out to local chapels and always returned to the Stake Center.
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jan 16, 2012 0:38:54 GMT
Those two eps of "Master Plan" were found along with an episode of "Warship" (tx June 1973 to March 1979), and something called "Adventure World".
If the title of the episode of "Warship" was known, thereby giving us the tx date, wouldn't it be possible to at least narrow down the earliest date that that particular film had been there...
And maybe also we need to find out if/when "Warship" screened in Australia, just in case these films were returned from the ABC...
Same with "Adventure World" - presumably this is a documentary rather than a drama.
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Post by John F Brayshaw on Jan 16, 2012 1:00:52 GMT
Aron, would you know if there is any possibility of any 16 mm actually going back to Mormon archives in Utah? No, I'm pretty sure that wouldn't have happened. The church would have kept a copy of each of the general conference films. But the local records I have don't show any films ever being returned to Salt Lake City. Films were sometimes lent out to local chapels and always returned to the Stake Center. Thanks Aron! We can only can hope more eps will show up some place
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