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Post by LanceM on Oct 12, 2011 22:31:26 GMT
Richard Said it perfectly there. These actions do oftentimes irritate the television companies-stations. However, can have some positive results in some cases. All in all, too many messages tend to irritate and annoy, and not make anyone want to deal with any official channels at that point. Which, as you can easily see would be bad for us all in the long run.
Letting those who have been professionally searching keep up their research ( unhindered ). However, if you have any ideas of places to look-search, contacting Paul and the RT would be a good idea. As they are really in the best position to make these inquiries through official channels, and receive a far more detailed response in regards. This has just been my experience as well here. Likewise, many of us here have pulled "Rabbits out of Hats", not to say it cannot be done, just that there is a proper way of conducting this is all!
Research efforts for Lost TV in any shape and form, are always to be commended in regards. Likewise, am ever so thankful for all the hard work and research being conducted by all concerned.
Again, you said it perfectly there Richard!
Cheers, Lance.
P.S. Anyone can create a facebook page, for most anything. Many are for artists-individuals who are now deceased and make regular posts? You see my point. Just something I thought would point out there.
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Oct 12, 2011 22:54:23 GMT
These actions do oftentimes irritate the television companies-stations... However, if you have any ideas of places to look-search, contacting Paul and the RT would be a good idea. As they are really in the best position to make these inquiries through official channels, and recieve a far more detailed response in regards. I don't want to criticise anyone searching for lost TV, but when it comes to TV stations and some official archives, an official approach is often the best. I'm in contact now with an archive which has been contacted very recently by researchers. They were told there was nothing. The list in front of me tells a different story. I'm not saying that there's anything missing on it, but it proves that official contact is often the best way. It's not a hard or fast rule though. Another station archive I contacted through governmental channels denied having anything. I've since found out they do have material although I don't know what yet. Also, the system of distributing material around the world was a well oiled if haphazard machine. Unpicking how it worked has been crucial to working out what may be out there... Paul
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Post by Ray Langstone (was saintsray) on Oct 13, 2011 10:14:10 GMT
The thing is, when Paul Vanezis on this very board is doing this at the moment through official BBC channels, I can't quite see the point of others getting involved independantly. This brings me back to a point I've made, I think, several times. We need a central repository of what's been checked. A very basic, text only, website would suffice. We get quite a few people asking "Have you checked Timbukthree ?" which requires those who have to reply. A simple listing, by country, identifying the archives that have been checked would save a lot of unnecessary effort. Agreed, generally. Howver a growing number of archives are online and searchable by any member of the public which includes overseas archives and UK ones. Because anyone can search them, I DO. The Orson Welles, Double Your Money, audios to the Cathode Ray Tube show, LNLU and many other finds have come this way. The BBC and relevant archive holders are informed of all finds. I have, by suggestion, contacted a number of private individuals who I get informed have missing footage, then put them onto Kal or the BBC. It's rare I contact a library/archive that doesn't have a SEARCHABLE database that anyone can access. I usually leave it to others. In fact, the only ones I've actually contacted that are English speaking are Babados (through an informal contact) and a defunct broadcaster in Southern Africa that was privately owned (and only started in the late 70's, so no missing Dr Who, etc.) while looking for music footage for a programme since shown on the Beeb (external production). Again I had to contact them via an ex-employee. So I would like to think I do not interfere with Kal, Paul, the BBC, the archive holders or anyone at all. I just complement what these people do, with occasional success. ;D
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Post by Ash Stewart on Oct 13, 2011 11:36:42 GMT
Indeed - with Paul on the case checking these stations through official channels, the rest of us are best off just letting him get on with it; after all, he does have a good track record in this respect.
We're best off looking in places like second hands shops, car boot fairs, jumble sales, all sorts of places like this that are so numerous all across the country. The chances of finding something (and really this includes any film cans) is slim, but given the choice between slim and none I'd take slim any day of the week. It's the best chance most of us will have.
Also, to just talk to people about missing TV, and about 16mm films and projectors. You never know, you might end up speaking to someone saying something like "ah, yes, my uncle has a load of films like that..."
It all about getting that lucky break...
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Post by Ray Langstone (was saintsray) on Oct 13, 2011 11:53:02 GMT
I agree Ash, and I have a few times got that lucky break.... (see pages 6/7 of the Jean Genie TOTP thread on the Top of the Pops and other Music Shows Forum). Ask anyone you think may have something!
But searchable databases are great too for the general punter.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2011 14:47:32 GMT
I'm firmly of the view that the best way of getting something done properly is to do it yourself though (as you do, Ray). Contacting people and locations is something anyone with time and an inkling of diplomacy can do. The more people giving a hand in the search for missing material, the better.
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Post by LanceM on Oct 13, 2011 20:16:21 GMT
This is quite true Laurence. However as Paul has stated above, certain archives-institutions were contacted and stated they had nothing, through individual communications. Later through official channels, looks as if there may well be material of some nature there which was denied through the individual's general course of inquiry.
I also agree, the more the better! However, we all have to coordinate our efforts. And attempt to work together as a team to reach those big lofty goals we all are wanting to see made-achieved in the field! Otherwise, stepping on each others toes and irritating a lot of people has "generally" been seen as the result of the mass public inquiry. Time and again this cycle has been seen to repeat itself.
As was also stated above, the unpicking of this system has been crucial to seeing what may yet be out there. Having access to specialized documents and contacts unavailable to the individual is also a big feather in this hat! Something none of us would be able to accomplish if we tried.
Researchable databases, written records, word of mouth, public awareness, auctions, estate sales, fan organizations, electronics and second hand shops, and many more...
There are other options available as have been previously suggested in regards.
Cheers, Lance.
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Post by Douglas Wulf on Oct 14, 2011 3:40:09 GMT
The more people involved in the broad search out in the wider public, the better. In other words, it is perhaps only through people contacting other people directly that film prints sitting in someone's attic or closet might be discovered.
On the other hand, in the case of film archives and broadcasters, official channels are certainly best. And, fortunately, efforts are now being made through official channels, as we hear from Paul.
It seems to me that fan efforts are therefore most usefully directed outward to the wider community where missing footage may be located in "unofficial" locations.
For example, I know two individuals who have gone to work in Zambia. Before they each left the U.S., I simply made them aware of the missing episode situation with British television generally, and told them if they ever happen across old film prints while traveling around Zambia, they should take note of them, since they might be highly valuable! If more and more people were simply made aware of the situation, something might someday turn up in some unexpected location.
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Post by Ray Langstone (was saintsray) on Oct 24, 2011 7:56:10 GMT
I'm firmly of the view that the best way of getting something done properly is to do it yourself though (as you do, Ray). Contacting people and locations is something anyone with time and an inkling of diplomacy can do. The more people giving a hand in the search for missing material, the better. Interestingly, I have now been in touch with someone in Barbados! Nothing yet. Will keep you posted.
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Post by Rob Moss on Oct 24, 2011 11:49:03 GMT
I'm firmly of the view that the best way of getting something done properly is to do it yourself though (as you do, Ray). Contacting people and locations is something anyone with time and an inkling of diplomacy can do. The more people giving a hand in the search for missing material, the better. Ok, hypothetical scenario. There happens to be a missing Troughton serial in the vaults of LPTV in Namibia. Rob Moss phones up LPTV and says "The BBC are looking for old Dr Who episodes - do you have any?" LPTV Archivist looks around, realises that the contract with the BBC states that they should have returned or destroyed said Troughton episodes in 1975, says to Rob Moss "No, sorry we don't". LPTV Archivist hastily destroys prints for fear of getting sued for breaching original contract. Two months later, Paul Vanezis phones up LPTV and says "BBC here - we're looking for old film prints - don't worry if they should have been destroyed, we'll be so glad to get them back that we really won't mind". LPTV Archivist says "Oh sorry, we did have all of Fury From The Deep, but we realised that we should have destroyed it, so it's all gone, I'm afraid". Exaggerated example, but do you see how ad hoc enquiries could potentially do more harm than good, particularly if there is a methodical plan in place to make these enquiries officially. I don't want to knock Ray's approach - I think he does a great job dealing with the individuals he finds with material and he's found some wonderful stuff, but I do think that television companies and official archives should only be approached by tv companies or official/experienced bodies such as the BFI and Kaleidoscope, just to be sure that nobody's toes are being trodden on.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 14:49:19 GMT
Exaggerated example, but do you see how ad hoc enquiries could potentially do more harm than good, particularly if there is a methodical plan in place to make these enquiries officially. I don't want to knock Ray's approach - I think he does a great job dealing with the individuals he finds with material and he's found some wonderful stuff, but I do think that television companies and official archives should only be approached by tv companies or official/experienced bodies such as the BFI and Kaleidoscope, just to be sure that nobody's toes are being trodden on. No. On the other side of the coin, official approaches can be long-winded and beaurocratic (by which time material may also be wiped by taking this line). We know from past experience that this can happen if we wait for the "official bodies" to do it themselves. You can look at it either way and find a negative (or positive) angle. Personally I think there is too much politics, empire building and oneupmanship in the whole thing. If Joe Average is fed up with the complacency of the powers-that-be approach, more power to him for getting off his arse and trying himself! Who is anyone else to say he can't?!?
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Post by Rob Moss on Oct 24, 2011 15:17:04 GMT
Ok in that case, do you appreciate how little notice a TV archive is likely to take of someone with no "official" status...? I'll give you a clue - try touching your thumb with your index finger...
I don't know what you do for a living, Laurence, but how would you feel if someone who had no connection to your company rang you up and demanded that you check your company's paperwork archive to see if you still had a letter that someone else had sent them 40 years ago..?
Surely you'd agree that you'd be far more likely to entertain the idea of looking for the letter if the person who wrote it asked you to find it..?
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Post by Ray Langstone (was saintsray) on Oct 24, 2011 15:28:25 GMT
Ok in that case, do you appreciate how little notice a TV archive is likely to take of someone with no "official" status...? I'll give you a clue - try touching your thumb with your index finger... I don't know what you do for a living, Laurence, but how would you feel if someone who had no connection to your company rang you up and demanded that you check your company's paperwork archive to see if you still had a letter that someone else had sent them 40 years ago..? Surely you'd agree that you'd be far more likely to entertain the idea of looking for the letter if the person who wrote it asked you to find it..? When I do contact archives, it's always been a polite request to them, and a polite response back. I trust that's the way it'll stay. I'd also like to point out that a couple of archives have been grateful I've spotted footage of theirs that they didn't possess that was laying in another archive.
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Post by Rob Moss on Oct 24, 2011 15:54:41 GMT
There is of course a world of difference between contacting an archive and saying "you've got this in your archive - the BBC would love a copy back please" and saying "could you have a look and see if you've got anything missing". It's going to be largely down to the amount of effort required from the person on the end of the phone...
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Post by Greg H on Oct 24, 2011 15:56:40 GMT
Come on lads, theres no need to argue! Everyone's efforts to retrieve missing material are greatly appreciated.
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