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Post by Greg H on Jul 26, 2010 13:53:47 GMT
Hello all,
i was just reading the online wiki article about the history of the missing episodes of who and I found something that is news to me.
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The Film Library at the time held only 47 episodes of 1960s Doctor Who; they had once held 53, but six episodes had either been junked or gone missing
Unquote
Is this accurate, or is it an example of wiki being edited about? If this is factual, do we have any idea what the episodes that went missing are?
Anyone know?
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Post by Alex Taylor on Jul 26, 2010 19:12:55 GMT
The Crusade:1
The Celestial Toymaker:2 (*)
The Power of the Daleks:6
The Ice Warriors:3
The Wheel in Space:5
The Daleks' Master Plan:4
All episodes were junked apart from DMP:4, which went walkies.
(*) According to the article in 'Nothing at the End of the Lane #2', this may in fact have been just a T/R of the end of the episode, and not the entire thing.
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Post by Greg H on Jul 26, 2010 20:11:22 GMT
The Crusade:1 The Celestial Toymaker:2 (*) The Power of the Daleks:6 The Ice Warriors:3 The Wheel in Space:5 The Daleks' Master Plan:4 All episodes were junked apart from DMP:4, which went walkies. (*) According to the article in 'Nothing at the End of the Lane #2', this may in fact have been just a T/R of the end of the episode, and not the entire thing. so, I suppose the official paperwork exists signing these off then. Interesting to know anyway. I wonder if there was a specific reasoning behind junking these particular 16mm T/Rs? Or if it was just the general BBC thing that was in vogue at the time? Ah well, never mind. So, is it suspected the telerecording of CT2 was on the start of a recording of something else that was subsequently junked then? I really will have to get a copy of 'nothing at the end of the lane' at some point. Sounds like an interesting read. |
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Post by John Andersen on Jul 26, 2010 21:56:47 GMT
so, I suppose the official paperwork exists signing these off then. Interesting to know anyway. [/quote] Yeah, I try to look on the bright side. Instead of watching The Power of the Daleks on TV, I can always look at the official paperwork instead. Unfortunately, it's just not the same.  |
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Post by Alex Taylor on Jul 27, 2010 7:21:30 GMT
So, is it suspected the telerecording of CT2 was on the start of a recording of something else that was subsequently junked then? The theory is that it's the end of the episode, T/Rd in order to play into studio at the start of the recording of episode 3 (as opposed to reenacting the reprise). |
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Post by B Thomas on Jul 27, 2010 13:06:47 GMT
It's been stated before that it's not really known why both The Power of the Daleks:6[/b] and The Wheel in Space:5 were junked as they were held on 35mm film (broadcast in this format) and were, possibly, supposed to have been kept in the same way that other 35mm episodes were kept.
Any truth on this?
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Post by Greg H on Jul 27, 2010 13:25:11 GMT
I dont know Bevan, the whole thing leaves me scratching my head to be honest. Even if the people involved were under the impression that the episodes were stored in duplicate elsewhere, surely they would have been inclined to keep the 35 mm prints as superior quality versions? I havent got the foggiest. It would be quite nice to know exactly what was going on.
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jul 27, 2010 18:33:50 GMT
Even if the people involved were under the impression that the episodes were stored in duplicate elsewhere, surely they would have been inclined to keep the 35 mm prints as superior quality versions? That's really the point though. At that time they weren't under the impression that the episodes were elsewhere, as it really wasn't a concern for them. The 35mm episodes were simply sent Windmill Road simply because that was the remit of that particular archive - to hold BBC material that had originated on film. Once they had been broadcast, there really wasn't much of a reason to hold onto the originals at all, once Enterprises had made their own telerecording negatives. Material in the Film Archive generally had a better survival rate than the videotapes in the Engineering Department or BBC Enterprises, but then that's only to be expected. Videotapes were seen as an expensive and therefore reusable commodity, and Enterprises only held onto the telerecordings they had whilst they could actually sell them. Once the programmes reached the point where no-one was buying them any more, they were disposed of to make physical room for other material that was selling. Although Film Archive material survived better, things were still routinely junked, which probably explains what happened to the likes of Power of the Daleks #6 and The Wheel in Space #5. |
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Post by Robert Manners on Aug 16, 2010 17:47:50 GMT
Even if the people involved were under the impression that the episodes were stored in duplicate elsewhere, surely they would have been inclined to keep the 35 mm prints as superior quality versions? Although Film Archive material survived better, things were still routinely junked, which probably explains what happened to the likes of Power of the Daleks #6 and The Wheel in Space #5. What reason would the Film Archive have for junking material please? |
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Post by Daniel O'Brien on Aug 16, 2010 19:26:23 GMT
Although Film Archive material survived better, things were still routinely junked, which probably explains what happened to the likes of Power of the Daleks #6 and The Wheel in Space #5. What reason would the Film Archive have for junking material please? Up until the late 1970s, it was a library rather than an archive as such and, so far as I know, had no remit to preserve all the material it held for posterity (unfortunately). Given the attitudes and priorities of the time, it's surprising they also held 16mm film copies of material that originated on videotape, including a number of 'Who' episodes. |
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Post by Steve Rees on Sept 2, 2010 22:33:41 GMT
What I don't understand is why we have one or two episodes from a single story remain and the rest are missing - surely, for example, as we have 3 eps of dalek#'s master plan, we'd have found the rest of the episodes together because what would the point in buying random episodes and showing them randomly for? logic states that if you're going to keep a story you'd have all the episodes intact or it would just be a waste of time? am i right? i'm slightly drunk on sherry but i just don't see why we stumble upon odd episodes and we don't find the rest of the episodes for that particular story.
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Post by John Andersen on Sept 3, 2010 5:20:44 GMT
What I don't understand is why we have one or two episodes from a single story remain and the rest are missing - surely, for example, as we have 3 eps of dalek#'s master plan, we'd have found the rest of the episodes together because what would the point in buying random episodes and showing them randomly for? logic states that if you're going to keep a story you'd have all the episodes intact or it would just be a waste of time? am i right? i'm slightly drunk on sherry but i just don't see why we stumble upon odd episodes and we don't find the rest of the episodes for that particular story. I don't think anybody had the time or much opportunity to steal the prints of an entire story from the BBC. Somebody might have been able to help themselves here and there to film prints that were being thrown away, but it might look kind of obvious if somebody was taking their time with a cart looking to take all the stories from seasons 3-5 home with them. Too great a chance of being caught by fellow employees and prosecuted for theft. |
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Post by John Wall on Sept 3, 2010 19:24:49 GMT
What I don't understand is why we have one or two episodes from a single story remain and the rest are missing - surely, for example, as we have 3 eps of dalek#'s master plan, we'd have found the rest of the episodes together because what would the point in buying random episodes and showing them randomly for? logic states that if you're going to keep a story you'd have all the episodes intact or it would just be a waste of time? am i right? i'm slightly drunk on sherry but i just don't see why we stumble upon odd episodes and we don't find the rest of the episodes for that particular story. I don't think anybody had the time or much opportunity to steal the prints of an entire story from the BBC. Somebody might have been able to help themselves here and there to film prints that were being thrown away, but it might look kind of obvious if somebody was taking their time with a cart looking to take all the stories from seasons 3-5 home with them. Too great a chance of being caught by fellow employees and prosecuted for theft. The three episodes of Masterplan turned up in different circumstances. See: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Who_missing_episodesTo some extent it's an absolute miracle that we have those three. |
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Post by Greg H on Sept 6, 2010 20:00:24 GMT
Yes, the old DMP prints were pretty much a gift werent they!
Then again, there is always the possibility that the Australian prints of 11 episodes could bubble to the surface.
As I understand it there is some lack of documentation with regards to wether the prints were sent back to the BBC, destroyed by the ABC or simply went AWOL into the ambiguous void of private collections or the local skip.
Anyone know any more info about what is currently thought about this set of prints?? Any new developments or info?
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Post by John Wall on Sept 6, 2010 22:34:48 GMT
Yes, the old DMP prints were pretty much a gift werent they! Then again, there is always the possibility that the Australian prints of 11 episodes could bubble to the surface. As I understand it there is some lack of documentation with regards to wether the prints were sent back to the BBC, destroyed by the ABC or simply went AWOL into the ambiguous void of private collections or the local skip. Anyone know any more info about what is currently thought about this set of prints?? Any new developments or info? I'd be happy with Aussie prints of 8 episodes ! |
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