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Post by Kev on Sept 6, 2004 17:53:05 GMT
Odd bloke that Lord Reith.
Banged on about morality all his life and after his death it was reveled he was less than perfect himself.
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Post by William Martin on Sept 6, 2004 17:56:25 GMT
a potential social menace of the first magnitude, is how he described tv
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Post by Andy Henderson on Sept 6, 2004 18:31:33 GMT
It's The Beatles? The sequence I've seen looked fairly complete to me and it's better than having a bad film recording or nothing at all. I don't know why people always rant on about the Beatles on TOTP when (as far as I'm aware - prove me wrong) most of their latter appearances were pre-filmed (or taped) and were not exclusive.
Re: Maigret - it's merely an example of a complete, quality surviving programme, which of high technical merit, but despite all those merits would be difficult to repeat to a modern audience.
Re: Lord Reith. The BBC have always chosen to ignore his male 'friendship' with young Charlie and given some of the surviving photos and diary entries, it is difficult not to believe that Reith wasn't in love with him. When Charlie left Reith and became attached to a girl the both admired, Reith was never the same person. Bitter, twisted and suffering from depression.
He wasn't a hypocrite as he believed strongly he was right and I'm sure his love for another man was probably a misguided mixture of relegious fervour and male bonding taken to an extreme.
I'll say one thing is his favour, he could write some wicked put-downs!
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Post by Kev on Sept 6, 2004 18:40:14 GMT
Hi Andy! Up until Paperback Writer/Rain, after which they became a studio band, the following perfomances are wiped.
These are extremely important and it is a travesty that they do not exist.
It seems that the edition where they do Paperback Writer/Rain exists in private hands.
Believe you me, it is worthy of getting het up about.
The Beatles She Loves You 1st January, 1964 Jimmy Savile, Alan Freeman Disc No The Beatles I Want To Hold Your Hand 1st January, 1964 Jimmy Savile, Alan Freeman Promo Video No The Beatles I Want To Hold Your Hand 8th January, 1964 Alan Freeman, David Jacobs Promo Video No The Beatles I Want To Hold Your Hand 15th January, 1964 David Jacobs, Pete Murray Promo Video No The Beatles I Want To Hold Your Hand 22nd January, 1964 Pete Murray, Jimmy Savile Disc No The Beatles All My Loving 12th February, 1964 David Jacobs, Pete Murray Promo Video No The Beatles Can't Buy Me Love 25th March, 1964 Jimmy Savile, Alan Freeman Repeat Performance No The Beatles You Can't Do That 25th March, 1964 Jimmy Savile, Alan Freeman Repeat Performance No The Beatles Can't Buy Me Love 1st April, 1964 Alan Freeman, Pete Murray Disc No The Beatles You Can't Do That 1st April, 1964 Alan Freeman, Pete Murray Repeat Performance No The Beatles Can't Buy Me Love 8th April, 1964 Pete Murray, David Jacobs Repeat Performance No The Beatles Can't Buy Me Love 15th April, 1964 David Jacobs, Jimmy Savile Promo Video No The Beatles Can't Buy Me Love 22nd April, 1964 Jimmy Savile, Alan Freeman Disc No The Beatles Long Tall Sally 1st July, 1964 Alan Freeman, David Jacobs Promo Video No The Beatles Long Tall Sally 8th July, 1964 David Jacobs, Pete Murray Repeat Performance No The Beatles A Hard Day's Night 8th July, 1964 David Jacobs, Pete Murray Repeat Performance No The Beatles A Hard Day's Night 15th July, 1964 Pete Murray, Jimmy Savile Disc No The Beatles A Hard Day's Night 22nd July, 1964 Jimmy Savile, Alan Freeman Repeat Performance No The Beatles Things We Said Today 29th July, 1964 Alan Freeman, David Jacobs Repeat Performance No The Beatles A Hard Day's Night 5th August, 1964 David Jacobs, Jimmy Savile Disc No The Beatles Things We Said Today 12th August, 1964 Jimmy Savile, Pete Murray Disc No The Beatles A Hard Day's Night 19th August, 1964 Pete Murray, Alan Freeman Disc No The Beatles I Feel Fine 3rd December, 1964 Pete Murray Repeat Performance No The Beatles She's A Woman 3rd December, 1964 Pete Murray Repeat Performance No The Beatles She's A Woman 10th December, 1964 Jimmy Savile Repeat Performance No The Beatles I Feel Fine 17th December, 1964 Alan Freeman Promo Video No Jimmy Savile & The Beatles Interview 24th December, 1964 Jimmy Savile, Alan Freeman, Pete Murray, David Jacobs Promo Video No The Beatles Can't Buy Me Love 24th December, 1964 Jimmy Savile, Alan Freeman, Pete Murray, David Jacobs Disc No The Beatles A Hard Day's Night 24th December, 1964 Jimmy Savile, Alan Freeman, Pete Murray, David Jacobs Repeat Performance No The Beatles I Feel Fine 24th December, 1964 Jimmy Savile, Alan Freeman, Pete Murray, David Jacobs Repeat Performance No The Beatles I Feel Fine 31st December, 1964 Pete Murray Disc No The Beatles / Cartoonist Tony Hart I Feel Fine 7th January, 1965 Alan Freeman Disc No The Beatles Ticket To Ride 15th April, 1965 Alan Freeman Performance No The Beatles Yes It Is 15th April, 1965 Alan Freeman Performance No The Beatles Ticket To Ride 22nd April, 1965 Pete Murray Disc No The Beatles Yes It Is 22nd April, 1965 Pete Murray Repeat Performance No The Beatles Ticket To Ride 29th April, 1965 Jimmy Savile Repeat Performance No The Beatles Ticket To Ride 6th May, 1965 Alan Freeman Repeat Performance No The Beatles Ticket To Ride 13th May, 1965 Jimmy Savile Promo Video No The Beatles Help 29th July, 1965 David Jacobs, Jimmy Savile Promo Video No The Beatles Help 5th August, 1965 Alan Freeman Disc No The Beatles Help 12th August, 1965 Pete Murray, Jimmy Savile Disc No The Beatles Another Girl 19th August, 1965 Jimmy Savile Promo Video No The Beatles Help 19th August, 1965 Jimmy Savile Promo Video No The Beatles We Can Work It Out 2nd December, 1965 Pete Murray Repeat Performance No The Beatles Day Tripper 2nd December, 1965 Pete Murray Repeat Performance No The Beatles We Can Work It Out 9th December, 1965 Jimmy Savile Repeat Performance No The Beatles We Can Work It Out 16th December, 1965 Alan Freeman Disc No The Beatles Day Tripper 16th December, 1965 Alan Freeman Disc No The Beatles I Feel Fine 25th December, 1965 Jimmy Savile, Alan Freeman, Pete Murray, David Jacobs Repeat Performance No The Beatles Ticket To Ride 25th December, 1965 Jimmy Savile, Alan Freeman, Pete Murray, David Jacobs Repeat Performance No The Beatles Help 25th December, 1965 Jimmy Savile, Alan Freeman, Pete Murray, David Jacobs Repeat Performance No The Beatles Day Tripper 25th December, 1965 Jimmy Savile, Alan Freeman, Pete Murray, David Jacobs Repeat Performance No The Beatles Day Tripper 30th December, 1965 Pete Murray Disc No The Beatles We Can Work It Out 30th December, 1965 Pete Murray Repeat Performance No The Beatles Day Tripper 6th January, 1966 Jimmy Savile Disc No The Beatles Paperback Writer 2nd June, 1966 Alan Freeman Promo Video No The Beatles Rain 9th June, 1966 David Jacobs Promo Video No The Beatles Rain 16th June, 1966 Pete Murray Performance No The Beatles Paperback Writer 16th June, 1966 Pete Murray Performance No The Beatles Paperback Writer 23rd June, 1966 Jimmy Savile Promo Video No The Beatles Paperback Writer 30th June, 1966 Alan Freeman Repeat Performance No
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Post by Andy Henderson on Sept 6, 2004 20:59:41 GMT
I did say their later performances, or lack of them! Well are the earlier performances that important? (I should mention that I do have a set of Beatles albums before you think I'm having a go at them!). The Beatles appeared in a scores of films and television, much of which is still with us. For the purist who might want a complete collection, there is much missing from those earlier years. If those performances were live and were never recorded (which in many cases is undoubtebly true), these performances were as emphemeral as any of their stage appeareances. Do you blame the owners of theatres for not havi9ng the hindsight to film every one of their performances in the knowledge that it might be used one day?
I'm not for one moment suggesting that all of these deserve to be missing, but I have to ask, exactly how much better off would we be with a set of recordings. And having said that and bearing in mind those that have been preserved, there seem to be no official releases of their later promo films and tapes. Where are they?
If (for example) all those TOTP appearances existed (and in fact all of TOTP), the public would have a hard time going through acres of tape or film without feeling a touch of deja-vu forming.
Despite that there would be an undeniable frisson in their first appearance, or indeed the premiere of a particular song.
Ah well - back to my Dansette to listen to 'Peter and Gordon'........ ;-)
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Post by Laurence Piper on Sept 6, 2004 22:13:48 GMT
Regardless of anyone's liking or otherwise for The Beatles, mention of their wiped appearances perfectly illustrates the lack of any real archival policy by TV at the time; if you don't preserve The Beatles as examples of TV pop history, then who DO you preserve?!? There was nothing more relevant in the '60s, in fact (and by the time the TOTP appearance went out, this was quite clearly known). Incidentally, the It's The Beatles material that survives is anything but complete; it has been patched together with an odd assortment of random shots (extreme long-shots, over-long audience cutaways to fill in where group shots are in short supply etc) and is definitely not what went out in any shape or form. Sure, good something survives from it although it's not one of their key TV moments (and it would be more understandable if nothing of this show survived, made as it was before The Beatles' real universal fame happened - by the '66 TOTP though, there was simply no excuse whatsoever!) Obviously you're not a TOTP fan, Andy - a lot of us would welcome the "deja-vu" of watching episode after episode from the '60s and '70s!
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Post by Gareth R on Sept 6, 2004 23:51:17 GMT
if you don't preserve The Beatles as examples of TV pop history, then who DO you preserve?!? You're assuming that the BBC had the *right* to preserve their recordings of the Beatles. It's perfectly possible that Epstein insisted that the BBC followed their agreements with the band to the letter and destroyed the recordings once their contracted number of TV transmissions had taken place.
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Post by Andy Henderson on Sept 7, 2004 7:56:33 GMT
Obviously? You must be telepathic, Laurence! I didn't say that I wasn't a fan, but I can't see the merit in keeping hundreds of shows whichj *might* have been of use at some unkown point in the future.
Isn't all this fairly pointless anyhow - how many of them were actually recorded? Not very many from the early period?
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Post by Laurence Piper on Sept 7, 2004 8:25:26 GMT
Well, you're looking entirely from a business man's point of view - there are other, wider views. Cultural history, which is what moving images are. I wasn't particularly talking about those very early Beatles appearances though, just the ones after their universal popularity was established. And we're talking about the "public service" BBC here (at least as it was then) and part of that ethic should have been a desire to not regard their own productions as mere disposable fodder. If we believe in preserving books and the printed word, then moving visual images have tio be at least as important historically.
Pointless? I don't think so! In fact, a lot of those Beatles shows Kev listed above WERE recored (a few were even repeated)! TOTP itself was routinely pre (or from the tx) recorded from 1966 onwards - I have researched this myself,- and it's a myth that very many were never recorded after that time. So if there's a chance (a very reasonable one, i'd say) that some are still around, never say never...
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Post by Gareth R on Sept 7, 2004 15:08:45 GMT
part of that ethic should have been a desire to not regard their own productions as mere disposable fodder You're still choosing to ignore the rights situation. Have you ever considered the possibility that the BBC *wanted* to keep hold of more than it did, but thanks to the punitive contractual obligations imposed by Equity, the MU and others, found itself in an impossible position legally and financially?
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Post by Laurence Piper on Sept 7, 2004 16:58:17 GMT
No, not ignoring the rights issues at all. The BBC actually wanting to keep more stuff back then? That's a novel one. Nothing i've ever heard points to that being the case though, sadly. More they were oblivious or at best indifferent.
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Post by Andy Henderson on Sept 7, 2004 17:37:56 GMT
Laureance, why do we have so many good examples of notable early programmes, which never see the light of day. You'll wait a long time for a 'Saturday Night Out' DVD set, but there could be one. Admittedly, it doesn't have an old bloke in a police box or monsters*, so that should lessen the chances!
You're quick to denigrate the BBC for not looking after a cultural heritage, but were they meant to be recording it in the first place?
And look at the sheer mass of b/w material that again, DOES EXIST that will never ever see the light of day* (see asterisk above).
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Post by Laurence Piper on Sept 7, 2004 17:49:53 GMT
Well, sheer bulk of surviving material doesn't indicate it's quality (or otherwise). It's just happened to have been saved / recovered / uncovered etc. There was no selection process involved in a lot of cases, and that's one of the main criticisms to be made.
Yes, I do think that preserving it's material should have been a proper, responsible part of the BBC's activities, (as quaint as it may seem) and always have done! I can't really get my head around what your own interest in archive TV really is - you seem to just apologise for the TV archive's mistakes and run down a lot of interesting programmes (e.g. TOTP) that many of us with a passion for the subject matter feel we should have had the chance to see again! Is this too controversial for you?!? Perhaps a website dedicated to cinema / books / stamp collecting would be more to your taste?
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Post by Andrew Doherty on Sept 7, 2004 17:51:21 GMT
As my old headmaster used to say "if only" is the saddest phrase in the English Language.
A good grumble is fine, but will that get anything done?
These arguments would be best kept for historians and media studies students.
Will an apology undo the damage? The answer is no.
However, it is what can be achieved to remedy the bitter mistakes of the past that should count.
There is every possibility that some of the above mentioned programmes might, at some point, be recovered and the certainty that many others (which will not necessarily be all the desired programmes) will be recovered.
Mr Henderson is certainly doing his bit on this, as I know are others.
Let us be fair to those who are now responsible for the television archives, i.e. they have an archive policy, which they are doing their best to follow.
It is a matter of philosophy: Is the cup half full or half empty?
Yours sincerely,
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Post by Gary on Sept 7, 2004 18:13:04 GMT
we are not so much moaning at current archive policy as just wanting an acknowledgment that mistakes were made in the past. Bitter mistakes as you said is right. I personally think that not enough is done now to recover material by the companies although the personal work of individuals like Andy redresses this to a degree. You have brought this thread round to its beginning focus very well. So many more recordings have to be out there though but saying that such and such a show was not important and therefore not worth archiving in the first place is not the sort of thing you expect to find here and gets backs up. Everything is worth keeping and we should welcome anything turning up.
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