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Post by Ian Levine on Dec 26, 2009 21:09:35 GMT
My blood is boiling.
It's as if they intentionally and systematically removed and and all trace of the work I did in saving episodes.
Yet they devoted a quarter of the program to that one episode found in New Zealand - bugger what I found in Nigeria or Cyprus or in ex BBC engineer's hands in England.
It's a good job Paul Vanezis isn't within punching distance of me right now - I'm the one who telexed Cyprus, and I'm the one who arranged for the return of those episodes. He's flat out lying.
As for bloody Phil Morris - he has never found ONE SINGLE EPISODE in his entire life.
What a sick travesty.
And the only reason Sue Malden knew about Villiers House was because I told her, to save the first Dalek story.
Not even a mention of Pamela Nash.
All so inaccurate and so self congratulatory.
What sickens me even more is they claim the only way to enjoy these episodes is as audio plays, with no mention of the YEARS AND YEARS of selfless work Loose Cannon have done in making them visually come back to life so we can actually see what the bloody Trojan Horse actually DID look like.
Boy am I fuming !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by John Andersen on Dec 27, 2009 4:54:38 GMT
My blood is boiling. It's as if they intentionally and systematically removed and and all trace of the work I did in saving episodes. Yet they devoted a quarter of the program to that one episode found in New Zealand - bugger what I found in Nigeria or Cyprus or in ex BBC engineer's hands in England. It's a good job Paul Vanezis isn't within punching distance of me right now - I'm the one who telexed Cyprus, and I'm the one who arranged for the return of those episodes. He's flat out lying. As for bloody Phil Morris - he has never found ONE SINGLE EPISODE in his entire life. What a sick travesty. And the only reason Sue Malden knew about Villiers House was because I told her, to save the first Dalek story. Not even a mention of Pamela Nash. All so inaccurate and so self congratulatory. What sickens me even more is they claim the only way to enjoy these episodes is as audio plays, with no mention of the YEARS AND YEARS of selfless work Loose Cannon have done in making them visually come back to life so we can actually see what the bloody Trojan Horse actually DID look like. Boy am I fuming !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can understand why you would be ticked, but they aren't going to have something on TV that would put themselves in a bad light. They wouldn't want to appear incompetent in any way to the public. The reason why they say the audio plays are the only way to enjoy them is so they don't lose any profits to Loose Cannon. I think you were right when you said that there is nothing left to find out there. Even though I like the LC recons, I hope some fans in the future are able to animate the lost stories so that some of us can see them for the first time. |
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Dec 28, 2009 0:12:27 GMT
All,
I'll be deleting this thread later today. But in the meantime, I'd like to know what in the Radio 4 documentary I said which is untrue? It seems to me that Ian is upset because he wasn't included in the documentary; that is nothing to do with me or any of the other participants.
My regards,
Paul
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Post by Greg H on Dec 28, 2009 7:07:14 GMT
I listened to it on BBC iplayer yesterday. I thought it was pretty good. I dont really see what was a sick travesty about it. Seems like a bit of a melodramatic description really.
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Post by John Fleming on Dec 28, 2009 13:15:59 GMT
Any documentary about early Who that doesn't mention Ian Levine is just plain wrong.
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Post by Ian Levine on Dec 28, 2009 13:46:14 GMT
All, I'll be deleting this thread later today. But in the meantime, I'd like to know what in the Radio 4 documentary I said which is untrue? It seems to me that Ian is upset because he wasn't included in the documentary; that is nothing to do with me or any of the other participants. My regards, Paul You claimed to have found and organised the return of those Reign Of Terror episodes. Even if you located their existence before I found them, I had never heard of you in my life, I telexed Cyprus totally independently of you, and it was my work that got the episodes returned. Similarly, Phil Morris has indeed tried hard but found absolutely nothing. I find it grossly offensive that all my hard work was airbrushed out of history, in exactly the same way JNT did in the late 1980s with Jeremy Bentham's book. It is no wonder why I am as belligerent as I am, when so many people are out to either trivialise or totally remove anything which I have ever achieved in my life, and all it succeeds in doing is make me bitterer and angrier. |
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Post by David Robinson on Dec 28, 2009 13:57:01 GMT
I think if I had done the work that Ian has in recovering episodes, I'd feel exactly the same as he does for not even warranting a mention. Other than not crediting people that it should have, the documentary itself was good to listen to, even if Phil Morris' comment "Watch this space" was too much of a tease!
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Post by jontravers on Dec 28, 2009 14:49:40 GMT
It's very understandable that Ian feels the way he feels. His hard work and dedication has brought us treasures that would otherwise be crumbling in some vault overseas, or in some engineers garage. His passion for DW is well known and respected.
To be fair, it is not correct to lay blame at Paul's door for this. He was a contributor to this, and I would say that he would not be taking credit for anything he had not done.
Chris Ledgard and Mark Harrison are the two people who produced and researched the programme. They would be the ones who would be able to answer the question as to why there was no mention of Ian's hard work.
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Dec 28, 2009 14:58:20 GMT
You claimed to have found and organised the return of those Reign Of Terror episodes. No I didn't. Even if you located their existence before I found them, I had never heard of you in my life You were not the only person in the world looking for missing episodes back then Ian. As I don't think I'd heard of you either does that make your discoveries less important? I telexed Cyprus totally independently of you, and it was my work that got the episodes returned. Funny, I thought it was Roger Brunskill who did all the telexing and Steve Bryant who did all the legwork in getting the films back. Similarly, Phil Morris has indeed tried hard but found absolutely nothing. I don't know why you're bringing Phil into this. All he's ever done is (like me and others) try and complete as far as is possible our knowledge of how films were moved around and where they might be now. In the process of doing that, he may one day find some films; to say he has "never found ONE SINGLE EPISODE in his entire life" is actually untrue. It's just not a missing 'Doctor Who'. Most people would want to applaud that, not act in the spiteful way you have. I find it grossly offensive that all my hard work was airbrushed out of history, in exactly the same way JNT did in the late 1980s with Jeremy Bentham's book. Even if that were true, what's it got to do with me? It is no wonder why I am as belligerent as I am, when so many people are out to either trivialise or totally remove anything which I have ever achieved in my life, and all it succeeds in doing is make me bitterer and angrier. In this case I think it's more likely that the programme makers took an editorial line which didn't involve you, which is their right. It's a documentary which if they'd chosen a different episode as a case study other than 'The Lion' would have involved you and then you'd be on here saying how wonderful it was. There are two points to be made here. Firstly it wasn't woefully innaccurate. Secondly, I'd like an apology from you to me on all the various forums on the internet (and possibly other places I don't know about) where you have called me a liar. I am not a liar. The question is, are you a big enough man to do that? Regards, Paul |
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Post by Richard Bignell on Dec 28, 2009 15:14:57 GMT
You claimed to have found and organised the return of those Reign Of Terror episodes. No he doesn't, Ian. Paul found that CBC still held the prints a good couple of weeks before the BBC sent their telexes out and he asked his father, who was in Cyprus on business, to get in touch with the station to see what could be done to aid their return. When Paul got in touch with the BBC about the episodes, they had already had their own reply back from CBC. Can't see what that has to do with anything... I thought that was Roger Brunskill in this case? He's the one mentioned at the time and you've even said yourself that it was Roger who sent out the telexes and arranged the return in the past. Not any episodes of Doctor Who, and perhaps he never will. But he continues to work hard, putting the effort in and doing it in the BBC's name. That's something to be applauded, surely? Richard |
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Post by David Robinson on Dec 28, 2009 15:31:27 GMT
Out of interest, has Phil Morris returned anything substantial? Was there anything that should be read into his "Watch this space" comment, or was it a case of he thought there could be a discovery imminant which didnt happen in the end?
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Dec 28, 2009 15:38:24 GMT
Hi David,
Phil's comment just reflects the current state of affairs, which does include several leads being chased up in more than one continent.
As regular users of this forum know (particularly any readers of the 'Africa Progress' thread) this search has been going on for some time. It is methodical and intended to be definitive. We want to be able to say categorically there are no episodes left in foreign archives and if there are we'll get them back.
But my motto, and one which I use frequently to the numerous hoaxers I've come into contact over the years is 'I'll believe it when I SEE it'.
It's a policy that has worked well and why we've not become victim to any hoaxes, unlike others.
Regards,
Paul
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Post by adriane17 on Dec 28, 2009 16:26:56 GMT
For what it is worth I found the documentary interesting and informative even to someone who has been a fan for many years. I was surprised that Ian Levine's contribution over the years towards recovering stuff wasn't acknowledged at all but I guess the makers of the programme had to make something that appealed to the general radio listener and not just the Doctor Who fan hence the lengthy sections featuring names that might be familiar to the casual listener such as Pauline Collins who could hardly be said to have made a major contribution to the programme and the story of the recovery of The Lion made for a more interesting story than the latest recovery of Day Of Armageddon.
Peace & Goodwill to all Doctor Who fandom!
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Post by David Robinson on Dec 28, 2009 17:01:25 GMT
Hi David, Phil's comment just reflects the current state of affairs, which does include several leads being chased up in more than one continent. As regular users of this forum know (particularly any readers of the 'Africa Progress' thread) this search has been going on for some time. It is methodical and intended to be definitive. We want to be able to say categorically there are no episodes left in foreign archives and if there are we'll get them back. But my motto, and one which I use frequently to the numerous hoaxers I've come into contact over the years is 'I'll believe it when I SEE it'. It's a policy that has worked well and why we've not become victim to any hoaxes, unlike others. Regards, Paul Cheers for the info Paul. Lets hope at least one of the leads comes up with something! |
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Post by Ian Levine on Dec 28, 2009 18:47:47 GMT
Funny, I thought it was Roger Brunskill who did all the telexing and Steve Bryant who did all the legwork in getting the films back. Roger Brunskill sat me in front of the telex and left me to it. I actually typed out the request myself with my own fingers. And of course I asked Steve Bryant to actually arrange the legwork, as I did in many cases. We were a good team. You specifically said, unless I hallucinated, on that documentary, that the Reign Of Terror episodes were another notch on your belt. If that's not laying claim to their recovery, then I'm William Hartnell's toilet seat. |
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