BBC archive junkings: When did this stop?

[Paul Cooksley]

Hi all

I just wonder if someone could help clear something up for me.

Roughly when did the BBC actually stop junking it's programmes?

I know (well, I think) the archive was kind of treated seriously around 1978 when Sue Malden took over. However, I've read that, for instance, some BBC kids programmes were junked as late as the early 90's?

Is there any actual truth in this sort of thing? If so, what programmes were last to be junked? Does anyone know?

I presume, nowadays, all BBC shows are kept/recorded? Would this include all of BBC News channel output for example?

Sorry for all the questions, just really curious!

[cperry]

Material is wiped every week.

Classic archive stuff isn't wiped anymore, but lots of kids shows, studio recordings, film inserts, M&E tracks, etc are routinely wiped every year or every few years. Producers still consent to this wiping to save money on budgets and clear shelf space for new stock.

Independent productions are sent back to their production companies.

Often a VHS off-air has survived for 1" stuff that was wiped without transfer.

All archives do this, not just the BBC, there simply isn't space to keep everything off every channel.

Hope that helps.

c

[Paul Cooksley]

Oh right, I didn't realise that this still goes on.

I know things like original studio recordings that are held as part of a finished programme elsewhere might be wiped, but didn't quite realise that wipings went on to this day to this degree.

[Deleted]

I'm shocked that whole children's shows are still wiped. Nothing has been learned from the past? What type of kid's stuff, Chris? They're social history (or would be) and a record of how young people learn about the world.

[Jeff Lewis]

I'm intrigued to know if material is returned to the independant producers does that mean the BBC has any say in future broadcasts.

[cperry]

When a contract expires independent producers take back material as standard practice. Some examples are kept for the archives.

Entire kids shows are not wiped, examples are often kept. Other groups like the NFTVA are offered the tapes, its not as drastic as it may sound.

c

[Paul Cooksley]

Do we have any idea of exactly what recent kids shows have had episodes recently wiped???

[Andrew Martin]

Sept 30, 2009 19:27:12 GMT @laurencepiper said:

I'm shocked that whole children's shows are still wiped. Nothing has been learned from the past? What type of kid's stuff, Chris? They're social history (or would be) and a record of how young people learn about the world.

Laurence, what has been learnt is that you do not wipe every episode of a show. But with some programmes you are plainly not losing much by not keeping every single episode. The BBC does not have infinite resources and cannot transfer every episode of every children's show, quiz etc. Given that, the number of actual programmes wiped is still very low, and every effort is made to retain a fully representative archive. Material wiped is not recent material either - it will be at least 20 years old, which gives archivists plenty of time to assess its merits. Pre-1978 there was no selection to speak of, now there is - but the very word implies that not everything is necessarily going to be retained. Yes, there may be a day when all that is in the BBC archive (rights permitting - which is a big issue) will be available, but I find it hard to believe that anyone will feel too hard done by because (to quote a recent example on this forum) because they can only watch half the episodes of "Chock-a-Block" instead of all of them - and I can't see how social history is much altered by that either.

[Andrew Martin]

Sept 30, 2009 22:42:12 GMT Jeff Lewis said:

I'm intrigued to know if material is returned to the independant producers does that mean the BBC has any say in future broadcasts.

The BBC has a contract with independent producers, who make their programmes available for a certain number of showings. After that all the rights revert to them, and the BBC would have to renegotiate for further repeats. The law was changed about this not so long ago, hence indies are no longer (c) BBC on their end captions.

[Deleted]

Oct 1, 2009 18:40:45 GMT Andrew Martin said:

Laurence, what has been learnt is that you do not wipe every episode of a show. But with some programmes you are plainly not losing much by not keeping every single episode. The BBC does not have infinite resources and cannot transfer every episode of every children's show, quiz etc. Given that, the number of actual programmes wiped is still very low, and every effort is made to retain a fully representative archive. Material wiped is not recent material either - it will be at least 20 years old, which gives archivists plenty of time to assess its merits. Pre-1978 there was no selection to speak of, now there is - but the very word implies that not everything is necessarily going to be retained. Yes, there may be a day when all that is in the BBC archive (rights permitting - which is a big issue) will be available, but I find it hard to believe that anyone will feel too hard done by because (to quote a recent example on this forum) because they can only watch half the episodes of "Chock-a-Block" instead of all of them - and I can't see how social history is much altered by that either.

If the decision to wipe is made on older material though (i.e. 20 years), that's even worse, to my mind: it has managed to survive all that time only to be disposed of in the end. Again though, it's all down to who chooses what stays / goes; no, not everyone would want to watch every chock-a-block again but some of the audience would and should have the right to do so again. This is the real issue here. The BBC / BFI / whoever are STILL deciding what we are to be able to see in future - the same as it always was in the past. THIS is what has to change eventually.

[Luke Phelps]

That being said, I am very suprised if kids programmes from any era are still being wiped. Surely, there is (or could be) some commerical interest in selling these programmes (like Choco Block) to overseas broadcasters or for possible future niche channels showing "classic" childrens TV from a bygone era.

[Andrew Doherty]

The Annan Report of 1976, in response to the outrage of a number of dramatists, did want both the BBC and ITV to have an 'archive policy'. Now this being so, by definition, an archive must KEEP all material. Clearly the 1993 aberration was not an aberration. Also, wiping material that is twenty years old (or older) is just plain wrong. With the advent of new storage technologies, I would say there is no reason why there cannot be a server storage structure, such as that being developed and used by the BFI.

Let's trust that someone in possession of a missing programme does not get to know that wiping is still being carried out, no matter how infrequently.

Yours,

[Paul Cooksley]

So, I am *still* or should I say even *futher* intrigued after readings Andrew Martin's response above concerning the fact that some kids shows are still now wiped that are 20 years + old....

Please, (just out of interest) can we have some actual examples of *exactly* what kids shows have had episodes wiped in this way???

I am really interested in this - I had no idea that this practice still went on in recent times!

[Richard Bignell]

Oct 2, 2009 16:47:30 GMT Andrew Doherty said:

The Annan Report of 1976, in response to the outrage of a number of dramatists, did want both the BBC and ITV to have an 'archive policy'. Now this being so, by definition, an archive must KEEP all material.

Neither the Annan Report or the BBC Advisory Committee on Archives ever stated that the BBC should be keeping every scrap of its output. There was the recognition that although all the corporation's archival activities could be improved, it would never be practical to keep everything.

Richard

[Andrew Doherty]

(quote) Neither the Annan Report or the BBC Advisory Committee on Archives ever stated that the BBC should be keeping every scrap of its output. There was the recognition that although all the corporation's archival activities could be improved, it would never be practical to keep everything. (/quote)

Quite. However, that doesn't alter the definition of an 'archive'. Strange how, if the written archives are used to describe the BBC's documents and letters department, nothing is knowingly thrown away, and rightly so. No archive ever wipes or junks its contents. If it did, it would be just another working library.

Archives can be called libraries, but libraries are not necessarily archives.

Also, it should have been noted that the twentieth century was clearly the formative century for this medium. So everything from the first fifty years that was recorded could have been kept.
This leads to my point about new storage technologies that are now available to store audio-visual information.

Both the BBC and ITV needlessly junked programmes, and it has taken thirty years to recover many lost items.

I will give one example. What were those in authority thinking of when they wiped the recently recovered BBC2 'Thirty Minute Theatre' production 'The Flip Side' in late 1967? It is a masterpiece.

I don't think we can say that it was just another programme that need not be kept.

No excuses, because I know them all.

The bottom line is this, if we are talking about money.

No archive, no chance of a profit, and no chance of a future profit either.

Yours,