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Post by Ash Stewart on Jul 16, 2008 21:49:41 GMT
Reign of Terror: On looking at this one, it seems VERY strange that the same collector would give back 2 episodes of the same story, but at different times. This COULD bear further investigation depending on how the following scenarios pan out: Does anyone know the dates (approximate) when each of these private eps came back?? And at what date (approx) the BBC got back 1-3 from Cyprus? If you see what I'm trying to get at, it may (depending on the answers to the above) turn out to be that ep 6 was returned privately first, then 1-3 from Cyprus, and then 3 privately.If that IS indeed the case, then why did the person hold onto ep 3, until after ep 3 was returned from Cyprus. Surely if a person was going to return 1 'lost' episode they would return 'both' of them together. And I just won't buy into speculation that the private holder acquired them on different dates, given that these are the only 2 known prints to exist other than the ones from Cyprus. Or even if 1-3 came back from Cyprus before the private person returned either of their prints, why bother holding onto part 3 for however long a time difference it was, because they couldn't have presumably known the quality of the print that the bbc had acquired unless prints of 1-3 went out of the back door to be copied and distributed amongst fandom (which I doubt). It's not unprecented that a person with more than one missing episode would return one, and hold on to another; the chap who returned Faceless One 3 and Evil of the Daleks 2 left a gap of a good few months (almost a year...?) after returning FO3 before returning EOTD2... Time Meddler: From reading another forum, it seems that the author 'Fatso the Wombat' knows their stuff. Now why would he write in this article (and NOT change the wording or point out the mistake (if indeed it is a mistake)) that "Further to this, Mr Levine has gone on the record to precisely his position with regard to these episodes; “Everyone that mattered at the BBC knew I had these three episodes. At that time there were severe rumours of episodes around which people would only part with for another missing episode, and therefore it seemed right that I should TEMPORARILY hold back a few episodes just in case." THREE episodes ? THREE ?? In an earlier posting you yourself (Steven S) said that you now had eps 1, 3 but that's only 2. So what about the extra one ?? It's a direct quote from Ian taken, IIRC, from the RT Forum. I always took it to mean episodes 1-3. Although episode 2 wasn't missing at the time of the Nigeria recovery. He didn't have a copy of episode 4 until it came back from Nigeria. Saving from junking: Now unless the guy mentioned here in the article; "How many people took episodes in this manner is not known, but there was at least one (and realistically, he's probably the only one; is he the same person as above?). Those hoping that he may still have episodes will be disappointed. On the Restoration Team message board, Steve Roberts stated that "I personally know this guy and I know that every Episode he had eventually made its way back to the BBC…" is Mr Watson, then that would seem to contradict earlier postings on this thread about people NOT saving eps from being junked. It's not Francis Watson. However, bear in mind that Watson was an exceptional case; he came across two films that were about to be chucked out from a telerecording suite (that's right, isn't it?) that was being dismantled. It just so happened that the films were DW. It could easily have been any other show. A few years back, I was in contact with a chap from a film processing lab. At some point they must have been touting for business and carried out test-telerecordings. When the lab was closed down, this employee came across a couple of these test-telerecordings and kept them. It's a similar sort of situation. (Oh, and neither of these prints was DW...) The guy referred to in the paragraph quoted above worked at the BBC, in BBC Enterprises IIRC, and he is the only person from the BBC known to have saved prints from being junked. There was also a story a few years back about a skip company hired to carry skiploads of films from the BBC to landfill (two skipfuls a day over two weeks...!). He kept back five prints (nothing missing, nothing DW). However, he said that his boss kept lots more - an attic full was what he said! If that haul is still out there somewhere... As for the other 'possibles' in the article, at least it gives a little hope that there may still be some eps out there.
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Post by Ash Stewart on Jul 16, 2008 21:52:27 GMT
I'm not sure what the exact story is with Time Meddler -- I've heard both three and two episodes, but based on the fact that the copy of episode 2 that Ian had was a dupe (as was episode 4) , rather than an original (1&3 are originals) I assume that the correct # should be 2 (and didn't want to get into the complexity of the story when I posted before) ... Ian would know for sure .... I'm, pretty sure he was including his dupe of episode 2 when he referred to "three episodes".
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Post by Steven Sigel on Jul 17, 2008 4:27:09 GMT
Hi Ash -- Ian's dupe prints all seemed to be prints he bought from the BBC (they are for the most part prints for which the negatives no longer exist) - so I had assumed that Time Meddler (2) was one he bought from them, while 1&3 came from Roger Shore.
If that's not true, then it's an open question as to where ep 2 came from -- didn't Roger get his prints directly from the BBC? In which case, they'd all have to have been originals...
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Post by Doug Wulf on Jul 17, 2008 4:33:15 GMT
There was also a story a few years back about a skip company hired to carry skiploads of films from the BBC to landfill (two skipfuls a day over two weeks...!). He kept back five prints (nothing missing, nothing DW). However, he said that his boss kept lots more - an attic full was what he said! If that haul is still out there somewhere... Anyone know the name or how to contact the individual with these five prints in order to ask him the name of his boss who had the attic full of films? This seems to be some sort of lead.
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Post by JOHN SMITH on Jul 17, 2008 6:31:52 GMT
There was also a story a few years back about a skip company hired to carry skiploads of films from the BBC to landfill (two skipfuls a day over two weeks...!). He kept back five prints (nothing missing, nothing DW). However, he said that his boss kept lots more - an attic full was what he said! If that haul is still out there somewhere... Anyone know the name or how to contact the individual with these five prints in order to ask him the name of his boss who had the attic full of films? This seems to be some sort of lead. Earlier in this thread (page 1) I made a posting with Wombats article in mind, but could not remember where I had seen the 'story' about skip guys removing films. And Richard B said he had never seen such 'evidence'. So either Richard has never read Wombats article (which seems unlikely) and didn't know about this skip guy with films, or the skip employee thing just didn't check out once more facts were known. However, without definitive evidence, i.e the guy or someone who knows much more about this, coming forward, I think it will remain a 'story' with no basis in actual fact. However, thanks to Wombat stating that the 'other guy' was not FRancis Watson, it IS therefore known in black and white that at least 2 employees at the BBC removed Dr Who prints that they were meant to destroy. It would be interesting to know if Roger Shore who had Time Meddler, was also asked to destroy the prints, or if they were obtained 'earlier' Does anyone know ?? As that would then make it at least 3 people. (The more the merrier) But anyway, even at 2 (for the time being) it does vindicate my point that again I made in an earlier posting on the thread, that Dr Who indeed WAS popular to 'borrow' instead of being junked. And since it is stated that there was no specific junking team, just people told to do 'it' as and when, and with no way of knowing just who was told to junk what, then it DOES hold out hope that other people also 'borrowed' prints they were meant to destroy and that some of them were Who. Since the article states that there is no indication as to why on earth the 5 prints that were held by the film library were destroyed, it MIGHT be possible that 'whoever' just took the prints instead and marked the cards as destroyed if indeed for whatever reason they were meant for destruction. Or wanting them (for whatever reason) even took them home and then marked the cards as destroyed even if they were not meant to be destroyed in the first place. This could also hold out hope for TP4. I also (as well as presumably everybody else) have always found it EXTREMELY odd that the library seemingly only held prints of 1-3. It may be that they did indeed hold all 4, but that TP4 AND its index card were removed from the library (so that there would be no evidence left behind). (Therefore if one can also include the Blue Peter story, it may indeed be that there are not just 1, but indeed 2 prints of TP4 in existence) And, possibly something similar may have been done for Invasion parts 1, 4 since again it is VERY odd to just have 6 parts of an 8 part story, and that there is at least some sort of evidence that Invasion 1 was watched on video. (Again, when I made an earlier posting about Invasion 1 being in existence, it was from reading Wombats article a long time ago but forgetting where I had read about Invasion 1, and the strange goings on with the 'original cover' seeming to indicate that 1, 4 are indeed still in existence. (Wouldn't it be funny if they indeed DID turn up. Of course Invasion would then be re-released with all 8 original parts, and it would make Invasion the only story to ever be released on 3 separate occasions) People should not get their hopes up, but there are possibilities of future recoveries.
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jul 17, 2008 9:49:33 GMT
Earlier in this thread (page 1) I made a posting with Wombats article in mind, but could not remember where I had seen the 'story' about skip guys removing films. And Richard B said he had never seen such 'evidence'. So either Richard has never read Wombats article (which seems unlikely) and didn't know about this skip guy with films, or the skip employee thing just didn't check out once more facts were known. It's really down to what you want to class as being "evidence". I'm aware of the story that was mentioned on one of the forums six years ago that was looked at by Steve and Paul, but I've never seen anything to suggest that it was anything in it. According to the person who posted the story, the owner of the skip company had long since died and the business itself was now defunct. If there's any truth in it, I'm guessing that it would relate, not to events at BBC Enterprises in the 1970s, but to the later close down of Lime Grove Studios. We know that there were a row of skips lined up in Smith's Yard, but what was being disposed of there was primarily old news footage (Lime Grove having been the home of current affairs). You're drifting back into wild theorising again! The Film Library held more than just those five items and more than five have been destroyed, it's just that they're the ones that have their old cards remaining. The Archive disposes of material all the time. It did back then and it still does today (although much more selectively), so the disappearance of the material from the five episodes (and the cards weren't always referring to the episodes themselves) is nothing startling. Apart from the the pilot episode, there wasn't any real reason why any of the 16mm telerecordings should have been in the Film Library at that time. In all probability, they had just ended up there by mistake - sent back to Windmill Road in error rather than Villiers House. As such, it comes as no surprise that the Library's collection of 16mm telerecordings would be composed of just bits and pieces rather than whole stories. Richard
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Post by Ash Stewart on Jul 17, 2008 11:19:24 GMT
Anyone know the name or how to contact the individual with these five prints in order to ask him the name of his boss who had the attic full of films? This seems to be some sort of lead. The article from which this comes from is over at the Dr Who Gateway. This is the relevant text:
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Post by Ash Stewart on Jul 17, 2008 11:21:00 GMT
Hi Ash -- Ian's dupe prints all seemed to be prints he bought from the BBC (they are for the most part prints for which the negatives no longer exist) - so I had assumed that Time Meddler (2) was one he bought from them, while 1&3 came from Roger Shore. If that's not true, then it's an open question as to where ep 2 came from -- didn't Roger get his prints directly from the BBC? In which case, they'd all have to have been originals... IIRC they came from the BBC employee I mentioned in a previous post. But, yes, I would have thought that #2 was among the many episodes Ian bought from the BBC.
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Post by Ash Stewart on Jul 17, 2008 11:29:08 GMT
Earlier in this thread (page 1) I made a posting with Wombats rticle in mind, but could not remember where I had seen the 'story' about skip guys removing films. And Richard B said he had never seen such 'evidence'. So either Richard has never read Wombats article (which seems unlikely) and didn't know about this skip guy with films, or the skip employee thing just didn't check out once more facts were known. However, without definitive evidence, i.e the guy or someone who knows much more about this, coming forward, I think it will remain a 'story' with no basis in actual fact. See the post above re the Dr Who Gateway article - the writer of this piece is a reputable source. However, thanks to Wombat stating that the 'other guy' was not FRancis Watson, it IS therefore known in black and white that at least 2 employees at the BBC removed Dr Who prints that they were meant to destroy. The difference is that Watson essentially came across these two films by random chance; his regular job never led him to come in to contact with films. It would be interesting to know if Roger Shore who had Time Meddler, was also asked to destroy the prints, or if they were obtained 'earlier' Does anyone know ?? As that would then make it at least 3 people. (The more the merrier) IIRC he obtained them from the BBC employee referred to earlier. But anyway, even at 2 (for the time being) it does vindicate my point that again I made in an earlier posting on the thread, that Dr Who indeed WAS popular to 'borrow' instead of being junked. But Watson was a film collector - if it had been two episodes of Hancock, or 'Til Death, or whatever, he'd have taken them.
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Post by Neil Lambess on Aug 13, 2008 10:24:27 GMT
[quote author=speople Given the circumstances surrounding Lion, and its eventual return, I would STRONGLY suggest that the other 3 parts (1 of which we don't need anyway) are still in NZ. There's absolutely no evidence to suggest that they are. Richard well try telling that to the film collector Ive met who claims to have had two of them for most of the 70s and then onsold them at a film collectors fair in the early 80s. hes got enough ex NZBC stuff for me to believe him....... secondly ive met the person who enabled "walkies" for various prints out of the NZBC and TVNZ , so "official" documentation about what was and wasnt destroyed is highly suspect....
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Post by Neil Lambess on Aug 13, 2008 10:37:55 GMT
What annoys me is when we got the VCR we used to record Dad's Army and It Ain't Half Hot Mum, and I know some of the lost ones screened in NZ in 1984/85 as I saw them. Sgt Wilson's Little Secret was one, and the two lost IAHHM's. But we never kept them and reused the tapes because an E180 was $18.99 then. . about 5 years ago i was contacted by a BBC producer who was here in NZ for a friends wedding , who had been told I knew a film collector in Matamata who had a full set of Betamax tapes (but no betamax player !) of those DADS ARMY transmissions. I put the two of them in touch and he took the tapes back to the UK..but sadly they werent on there! (im not saying you didnt see them just that he hadnt recorded any that were missing...!) the producer had worked on Allo Allo and Hi de hi and i plead tempory insanity in forgetting his name , but he was quite happy to follow up the lead
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Post by Andy Howells on Aug 13, 2008 10:47:15 GMT
Possibly David Croft, I think there was a story circulating (probably more like ten years ago now) of when it was suspected Battle Of Godfrey's Cottage had turned up. I think when the tape was checked it revealed to be"Is there Honey Still for Tea?" another episode about Godfrey's cottage...
Thankfully, Godfrey's Cottage did turn up a few years later with operation kilt in someones shed but that's another story...
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 13, 2008 11:10:17 GMT
I think that producer you talk of might have been Charles Garland, who was Croft's assistant on many shows. I think I also might know the Matamata collector and seem to recall this incident.
I most definitely saw 'Sgt Wilson's Little Secret' in about 1985 on our TV. I didn't see any others but in my extensive research and searching I met or received mail from several people who said they'd seen The Battle of Godfrey's Cottage, describing the plot correctly and not the usual mix-up with 'Is The Honey". One chap in particular I knew fairly well and he described the scene where Jones got the worm down his back when he put the German helmet on and other bits clearly. He had never heard the radio version and (like most kiwis) wasn't even aware there was a radio series as no-one here listens to comedy on radio - so it was not this influencing him. Worse still he'd recorded it and when he realised it was lost through my publicity, he searched his tapes, found the one it should have been on and discovered his parents had taped over it. This was about two years before the episode was recovered in the BBC Treasure Hunt, thankfully.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 13, 2008 12:56:45 GMT
I have been going through some old documents since I wrote the above, and checking on what I've said. It turns out that the particular person who had recorded The Battle of Godfrey's Cottage had recorded it from an Australian television broadcast when he was living there in either 1988 or 1989. Those dates were fixed because that was when he lived in Aussie before moving home to Auckland again. A completely seperate and independent member of the DAAS NZ branch also saw it on Australian TV at that time. These two sightings came to my attention in 1996 when I placed a survey into the DAAS NZ Branch magazine "Platoon Attention!" asking if anyone had or had seen the lost episodes - describing them in some detail. Upon receiving this news from these two members, I quizzed them thoroughly on what they'd seen and both stories checked out that they'd seen the lost episode. Both thought it was on ABC TV but were not certain. I wrote to all the Aussie networks next, and from memory only one bothered to have the courtesy to reply, a nice chap who actually took an interest. The rest didn't bother, so I spoke with David Croft and he said he'd arrange another official BBC letter to each network just to try that channel. Nothing seems to have eventuated.
I also had members stating they had seen Operation Kilt, Sgt Wilson's Little Secret and Under Fire on TVNZ around 1985. There were of course more vague replies to the survey too. I had always thought I'd seen Sgt Wilson's Little Secret then because the story rang true with the first episode I ever watched. Being the first time I'd seen it, it stuck in my mind. i recall asking mum why Walker had said 'Put The Light Out' and she'd explained the black out to me. Later while collecting them I was hoping to see that episode again with that seen in the doorway where Wilson proposed marriage, but I never did again till I saw the recovered episode (in fact it had been nicked form the BBC and sent to the DAAS to prove it and Room at the Bottom existed because for some reason the BBC were denying its existence! They didn't seem to realise or didn't want to acknowledge for some reason that it had been in the batch of eight returned from Australia by David Croft on film.)
I have a strong suspicion that perhaps TVNZ had borrowed the films from the ABC for that broadcast run in 1985, to save getting films from the UK. I don't know, it's just a hunch. We were definately watching Mum's Army and The Big Parade on our TV then and it was only about this time or a little after that David found them in Australia and returned them to the archives.
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Post by John Andersen on Aug 13, 2008 15:40:01 GMT
[quote author=speople Given the circumstances surrounding Lion, and its eventual return, I would STRONGLY suggest that the other 3 parts (1 of which we don't need anyway) are still in NZ. There's absolutely no evidence to suggest that they are. Richard well try telling that to the film collector Ive met who claims to have had two of them for most of the 70s and then onsold them at a film collectors fair in the early 80s. hes got enough ex NZBC stuff for me to believe him....... secondly ive met the person who enabled "walkies" for various prints out of the NZBC and TVNZ , so "official" documentation about what was and wasnt destroyed is highly suspect.... This is interesting, Neil. Did this collector have missing Doctor Who episodes? Did he know that they were lost? Were these the two other episodes from The Crusade? You have mentioned in the past that some collectors are not willing to return anything to the BBC. After the newspapers in New Zealand printed a story saying that the BBC was threatening Grenville with prosecution in 1999, I can see why people would be hesitant to return anything when the BBC gets that kind of publicity.
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