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Post by LanceM on May 8, 2006 3:46:19 GMT
Hello Again,
I had a interesting idea, or question if you will. Hypothetically, say the missing episode Singing Sands or Roof of The World was recovered from Iran. I know that the BBC dubbed some stories in Arabic for overseas Arabic sales purposes ( Like Edge of Destruction ). What if the episode was recovered in Arabic. And as we all know the off-air soundtrack of the episode exists, and is available on BBC Audio CD. Could the BBC somehow join the two to create a complete English version of the episode ? Could the sound be improved for such a release? Or is it already at its peak sound ( Thanks the the fantastic hardworking Mark Ayres making these gems for us to enjoy). An interesting situation. What do you guys think ?
Lance.
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Post by stevewilliams on May 8, 2006 10:34:26 GMT
The sound could be adjusted to lip-sync easily enough, though this would not be fun to do since the open-reel tape source drifts in speed so that readjusting would have to be done continuously. The main problem is that the best audio sources were all done with mics in the room with the TV, and thus have a hollow "roomy" sound which would not match the look of the film scenes.
But hey, if Marco Polo prints are found in any manner that would be the news of the decade! It's my number one most-wanted lost Who, since I saw the whole serial three times in my youth. It's interesting watching the Loose Cannon recon,.. I vividly remember the map, the Tardis being pulled by mules, the condensation on the Tardis walls, and the backgammon game in which the doctor would have won back the ship, and I was in love with Ping Cho.. but nothing else really rings a bell in this forty year-old memory. When I was watching the syndication package in the 1980s with the Hartnell episodes being repeated for the first time I kept looking for the backgammon game, not remembering where it came from.
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Post by Greg H on May 8, 2006 10:52:48 GMT
It wouldnt be too hard to sync the audio up again to the visuals. It could simply be done in short sections until a satisfactory result was achieved. Even if the audio was missing they could just get actors to do it and it would still be better than the audio recordings alone that we have. I think the stock music used in old who episodes survives doesnt it? I am actually firmly of the opinion that Marco polo is one of the stories that is still kicking about. Statistically it is the most likely I think, other things aside. Any missing material coming back would be pretty welcome , or is that just stating the obvious?
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Post by stevewilliams on May 8, 2006 12:16:35 GMT
It wouldnt be too hard to sync the audio up again to the visuals. It could simply be done in short sections until a satisfactory result was achieved. Even if the audio was missing they could just get actors to do it and it would still be better than the audio recordings alone that we have. I think the stock music used in old who episodes survives doesnt it? I am actually firmly of the opinion that Marco polo is one of the stories that is still kicking about. Statistically it is the most likely I think, other things aside. No, and the rewards of getting the audio back with the film far outweigh the amount of work that would be needed for each episode. I don't know about getting actors to do it, the excitement of the BBC CDs and the Loose Cannon reconstructions is in actually hearing the original soundtrack, no matter how boomy or hollow. Yes nearly all the music exists. I entirely agree that statistically this should be one of the most likely stories to be recovered. It was sold to 19 countries (at least) and maybe 6 prints or more were made. Apparently it's one adventure the BBC wanted to hold on to because of the expense and quality of the production. Likewise "Power of the Daleks" should have been kept because all the regeneration stories were intended to be archived. Do we know when the Enterprises assets for these two stories were destroyed? When I watched the Lionheart Dr.Whos in the 1980s I was shocked that Marco Polo was skipped. I didn't know at the time about the missing episodes. On the other hand before the Lionheart syndications I didn't know Hartnell Dr. Who survived at all! I thought they would remain a distant memory from my days in Britain and then again watching the Canadian runs after we moved to Canada in 1964. Speaking of 40 year old memories, I clearly remember the excitement of watching "Unearthly Child" when it debuted on BBC, and then my surprise when the same episode was repeated the following week (because of Kennedy's assassination the day of the debut.)
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Post by Greg H on May 8, 2006 12:37:00 GMT
My trajectory did not put me on this planet when any of the now missing stories were originally shown so I never got to see them in the first place, no shadowy memories of them at all. One project that would be nice would be if the BBC gathered together all of the music used in the old missing stories and put them out on disc, I know Drew from mount vernon arts lab put out tomb of the cybermen OST on his own label, unless mt memory is decieving me, I have a copy somewhere and I think he did 10th planet as well. Were many more of these put out by the BBC or other parties does anyone know? Of course one of the major problems with the marco polo prints is that they could already have been 'privately archived'. Oh well.
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Post by Richard Bignell on May 8, 2006 13:55:07 GMT
Could the BBC somehow join the two to create a complete English version of the episode ? Yes. Indeed I understand that Mark has already used the off-air audio recordings as his primary sound source in preferance to the film recording soundtrack on some of the episodes already released. Richard
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Post by stevewilliams on May 8, 2006 15:30:51 GMT
Could the BBC somehow join the two to create a complete English version of the episode ? Yes. Indeed I understand that Mark has already used the off-air audio recordings as his primary sound source in preferance to the film recording soundtrack on some of the episodes already released. Richard Yes, such as the Tenth Planet episode two, however that was recorded to open reel tape electrically, the line input of the recorder was connected to a line level section in the TV receiver, possibly the speaker. That's better than from the mic to speaker . Some of these are nicknamed the "crystal clear" recordings. I recorded a few of the episodes myself starting with the repeat of the debut, it was done by having a Crown crystal mic sitting on top of the speaker grill of our Ferguson set. Those recordings at 1-7/8th on paper-backed tapes on voicemail 2-1/2" reels are very fragile and except for the second episode of Marco Polo are of existing programs anyway. What's in the possession of the BBC is better. A few years back I offered my tape recorded this way of "Juke Box Jury" with the Beatles to the BBC Treasure Hunt but received no reply after two Emails. They have three recordings of this anyway apparently.
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Post by Martin Dunne on May 9, 2006 2:16:10 GMT
But hey, if Marco Polo prints are found in any manner that would be the news of the decade! It's my number one most-wanted lost Who, since I saw the whole serial three times in my youth. That's once on original transmission on BBC, twice on CBC? Is there a good resource for CBC screening dates?
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Post by Bobby Clark (synthpopalooza) on May 9, 2006 4:17:46 GMT
Again, referring to a question I asked in another thread ... I was also looking for any airdates of colour Pertwee who on CBC.
Also: What was the fate of the Marco Polo prints after airing on CBC? Is it possible that film collectors have any, and they might turn up at car boot sales?
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Post by stevewilliams on May 9, 2006 9:16:41 GMT
But hey, if Marco Polo prints are found in any manner that would be the news of the decade! It's my number one most-wanted lost Who, since I saw the whole serial three times in my youth. That's once on original transmission on BBC, twice on CBC? Is there a good resource for CBC screening dates? I don't know a specific place to check airdates, but I assume there are TV guides in the library?... I left Shepperton after the first episode of Marinus had aired on the BBC, to Halifax NS, where after a short while Dr. Who started running. We then moved on from Halifax before Marco Polo had quite completed, to Sarnia, Ontario. After a short while CFPL in London Ontario (this would be late 1965-66) had a run of Dr. Who which ended after Marco Polo, they never aired Marinus I don't think. The Daleks were a huge hit among us kids with everyone walking around in cardboard boxes yelling "Exterminate! EXTERMINATE!!! We all were very disappointed that Dr. Who just disappeared from TV here. Later my cousin in Calgary Alberta said they were playing the series (66-67) which ended after Marinus. In 1969 I moved to Mississauga, where the earliest runs of Jon Pertwee's Who in America were to air on TVOntario (OECA as it was then known) and a bit later the series was carried on WNED across the lake. I actually recorded the entire run of Who (in colour) from Ambassadors of Death through to the end of Claws of Axos on a Sony AV-5000 which my father had bought from an advertising agency. This was 1974 to 1978. In 1978 Judith Merrill took over hosting duties for the program on TVOntario that aired Who, and some classics were repeated, such as Daemons and the Sea Devils. I do wonder why TVOntario didn't have "The Daemons" to return to the BBC, unless it's a matter of having played it twice, thus using up the lease, whereas "Inferno" had just run once and therefore could have been aired again. "The Daemons" was on during Judith Merrill's tenure, thus it aired from color videotape as late as 1978. And in case you're wondering about my colour recordings of "The Mind of Evil"... I used the tapes in 1982 for "Tucker's Witch" and "Remington Steel," recording on a newer AV-5850 with incompatible colour reproduction, even though I also had a Betamax. I bitterly regret that now. The 1985 airing of "Mind of Evil" on WNED was in black and white, on a very ragged kinescope. The colour patterning on the surviving betamax tapes of "Amabassadors of Death" etc. were caused by a harmonic from a police radio tower falling on to the colour subcarrier of WNED. It was a problem that plagued viewers in our area off and on for two years.
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Post by Martin Dunne on May 9, 2006 16:00:39 GMT
I take it that that's "No, there isn't one known." Anyone?
That's an excellent story, however, and I feel for your regret in wiping the colour Pertwee!
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Post by stevewilliams on May 9, 2006 16:44:15 GMT
A small revision, I left England during the run of Marco Polo (four episodes had gone by I remember) but subsequently saw all of Marco Polo in Halifax plus the first episode of "Keys" before we moved again, not the other way around.
I don't believe any Hartnell kinescopes have been found in Canada. It does appear that just one set of prints was being bicycled across Canada, East to West, and that early Doctor Who was never a network program.
I could have rerecorded some of the Pertwees from WNED in 1978 onto Betamax, (a Sony 7200 I think) but didn't because the color patterning ruining the already somewhat snowy reception made it seem not worthwhile to waste these expensive betamax tapes.
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Post by Greg H on May 9, 2006 18:43:56 GMT
Well you werent to know that some mental microbe was busily trashing television history mate I can understand your regret, but dont feel bad about it!
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Post by stevewilliams on May 9, 2006 19:05:43 GMT
Well you werent to know that some mental microbe was busily trashing television history mate I can understand your regret, but dont feel bad about it! To play Devil's Advocate I can understand Enterprises trashing uneeded prints, since indeed it was not their responsibility to act as an archive; but for Engineering to wipe the Jon Pertwee programs when Doctor Who was an ongoing and popular program is just inconceivable. Let us remember that 1970 to 1974 also saw the wiping of some Troughton episodes as well as the sole survivor of "Dalek masterplan." the teaser "Mission to the Unknown." The wiping essentially started with Troughton's "War Machines" and continued through half the Pertwees. Also of course so many other good series got destoyed in this period. I was amazed to hear even "Up Pompeii" was wiped. I loved that show. Thank goodness again the Canadians came through with colour VT.
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Post by Daniel O'Brien on May 9, 2006 21:20:56 GMT
All the master tapes for the 1960s episodes were erased, along with many of the Pertwee episodes. The BBC were still junking 1960s film copies well into the Tom Baker era. The ongoing popularity of 'Doctor Who' made no difference to BBC policy of the time. Regarding 'Marco Polo', while I'd love to see some episodes rediscovered, the odds are against it. While it was a top-selling story overseas, that doesn't mean there were lots of prints in circulation. I hope some TV archive or collector proves me wrong.
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