Dad's Army archive history

[simonashby]

I'm interested in knowing how the archive of Dad's Army got to be where it is today. Doctor Who is probably the best documented for this but other programmes less so. To me, it feels as if they (series 3 onwards) were always there in the archive but I have a feeling it wasn't that simple.

Did the BBC simply retain all tapes for series 3 onwards (bar Room at the Bottom) or come the late 70s, were there big gaps to fill in the archive like the majority of other programmes? I guess what prompted me was the question of why Room at the Bottom was the odd one out, existing as a film recording.

I read somewhere that a significant portion of what exists today are thanks to returns from Australia. Any truth in that?

[Peter Stirling]

Jun 19, 2019 9:19:59 GMT simonashby said:

I'm interested in knowing how the archive of Dad's Army got to be where it is today. Doctor Who is probably the best documented for this but other programmes less so. To me, it feels as if they (series 3 onwards) were always there in the archive but I have a feeling it wasn't that simple.

Did the BBC simply retain all tapes for series 3 onwards (bar Room at the Bottom) or come the late 70s, were there big gaps to fill in the archive like the majority of other programmes? I guess what prompted me was the question of why Room at the Bottom was the odd one out, existing as a film recording.

I read somewhere that a significant portion of what exists today are thanks to returns from Australia. Any truth in that?

There were two episodes in series 3 that were found in somebody's shed IIRC they were known as audition copies, which the writer or other interested parties had been given (or begged for) in order to promote their work elsewhere..very few people at that time had access to a videotape machine, let alone one which was a common standard or indeed a £50K beast at television centre. So these copies were on 16mm film which could be shown on the ubiquitous lightweight 'school' projector that was everywhere.

Series One survives entirely on 16mm film and that may have been for this reason ..BBC1 was on the old standard of 405 lines and at that time in 1968 TV studios all over were switching over from recording on the old 405 line system to 625 Lines ...so it may have been that DA 1 had been originally recorded in 405 lines, which would have caused a lot of problems later if they wanted to repeat it (or sell it) when the TV networks had fully switched to 625 lines and 405 lines was obsolete.So film copies were made.

Series Two is almost certainly recorded on 625 lines..and so on.

1968 also marks the time when Ampex (the inventor of the broadcast VTR) either relaxed or expired the patent on the videotapes that went on their machine ..so now any tape company could make them and so they were to became much more abundant and thus much cheaper.
So Series 2 was still at a time when rare and precious tapes were reused, and even the DA series 2 could have been made on reused tapes and so the missing episodes may have been at one time classed as unfit for transmission due to wear or something like that.Which today, of course, may well have been remedied with technology.

Obviously, you can go over again and again why this survived and why didn't that? but these programme makers in the BBC were in their own little worlds, surrounded by a sea of bureaucracy. one group being told to be sparing with the tapes and another group elsewhere filling their boots and so on LOL


.

[simonashby]

Thanks for your reply, but maybe it's not quite what I was asking. I'm pretty clued up on why things like this happened. I'm interested in what actually happened in the aftermath.

Dad's Army is well represented in the archive for the era and I am curious as to why that is. Especially given that series 3 is (bar one) intact on its original Quad format which comes after the half-missing mish-mash of series 2 (inc the 2 shed recoveries, which are actually series 2). Given that Room at the Bottom had its master wiped leads me to wonder if others were too.

Were many episodes sourced from other archives over the years (to tie up with what I've head about Australia)? Were there gaps in series 3-9 which were plugged over the years, or did the BBC simply retain them for whatever reason intentional or not?

[tombeveridge]

I recall that David Croft said that, as producer, he had to sign off on tapes being erased. As a powerful figure, he was able to deny all wiping requests. He suggested that requests to wipe Series 2 came to the production office while he was out of the country/on vacation. Are You Being Served is equally well represented in the archives, presumably because of his intervention.

[richardmarson]

Some early colour episodes like Something Nasty in the Vault were definitely returns from Australia.

David Croft wasn't able to prevent two episodes of It Ain't Half Hot Mum being junked either. And the pilot of AYBS being retained in b/w only.

[Richard Marple]

I did read somewhere that David Croft managed to get some strings pulled at the BBC to bring back some some episodes of his shows from either Australia and / or New Zealand after finding the were being repeated there while on holiday.

I'm guessing some tapes managed to get wiped by some mess ups with paperwork.

Some episodes of radio spin-off of the Dad's Army It Sticks Out Half A Mile were wiped due to poor record keeping at the BBC.

How much sway did producers have about keeping episodes? I'm sure Barry Letts mentioned he was unaware the Pertwee masters were being being wiped, & probably have put a stop to it if he had found out.

[Ronnie McDevitt]

Biddy Baxter was certainly able to preserve most of Blue Peter - a show that had even less chance of being repeated than Dad's Army.
Mind you she was an Editor rather than a Producer!

[Peter Stirling]

Jun 19, 2019 15:31:10 GMT simonashby said:

Thanks for your reply, but maybe it's not quite what I was asking. I'm pretty clued up on why things like this happened. I'm interested in what actually happened in the aftermath.

Dad's Army is well represented in the archive for the era and I am curious as to why that is. Especially given that series 3 is (bar one) intact on its original Quad format which comes after the half-missing mish-mash of series 2 (inc the 2 shed recoveries, which are actually series 2). Given that Room at the Bottom had its master wiped leads me to wonder if others were too.

Were many episodes sourced from other archives over the years (to tie up with what I've head about Australia)? Were there gaps in series 3-9 which were plugged over the years, or did the BBC simply retain them for whatever reason intentional or not?

Dad's Army survives well because it's never really been off the air, it has been a consistently popular repeat. The first 2 seasons being in B/W were never repeated as much as the rest of the seasons but these were reserved for special occasions.

As said before the fact that two or three masters didn't survive is not down to malicious junking for no reason..they may just have simply been faulty?

[RWels]

I suppose you could ask the Dad's Army Appreciation Society.

The Half Hot episodes were found on the television, and returned, by "just" a viewer. It was with the help of Perry or Croft (not sure which one).

[richardmarson]

A few points:

The early episodes of Dad's Army were routinely junked as per the policy of the time. Film recordings were made for sales purposes and we are lucky most of these survive. Years ago I worked for the producer Greg Childs (on Record Breakers) and we were discussing junking as the children's dept had only just discovered that a whole raft of their tapes had been wiped under the instruction of the then film library boss, Adam Lee. Greg recalled that one of his summer jobs in the early 70s was in engineering, loading 2" tapes into a machine to erase them. One day a trolley arrived loaded with Dad's Army episodes; the tape masters of the first two series. Greg told me he thought this must be a mistake as the series was already a major and established hit. He queried it and was given a sound telling off and told to get on with the job. So he did. "I'm the man, well boy, who destroyed Dad's Army," he said.
Engineering were in charge of the library until 1978. It was department heads who officially released tapes for wiping but in practise that process was often devolved to the department's manager. Producers were not consulted though some attempted to intervene. These wiping sheets were generated regularly and aimed at maximum efficiency. I've seen drama ones from the late 60s in which plays thought to be culturally important were retained but the day to day popular drama was routinely decimated as having little value. Paul Fox, then a Controller of BBC1, told me years later that there was tremendous financial pressure to release tapes and said he would sanction the same approach again on the basis that his and the BBC's job was "to make new programmes, not tie up resources keeping old ones".
Biddy was very much an exception. She hated being told what to do and loved a battle. I've seen many memos in which engineering try to coerce her into releasing material. But it is wrong to say it wasn't reused. Apart from the annual review of the years, and compilations for departing presenters, Biddy often repeated items and films. When I saw her last week I asked her for her view and she said: "To me, it was just common sense. We had a marvellous programme library, which I wanted to be able to use in the future..."
A pity that others lacked her foresight and determination!

[Peter Stirling]

In the end who the hell cares eh?

This person said this, and this person said that, who the eff knows what's right, it's all a very long time ago and we are dealing ghosts, while our lives slip away being concerned about all this old crap.

[richardmarson]

Well, obviously if you are a member of a forum like this, you are interested and you do tend to care.

Why bother posting such a negative and unhelpful comment? No one forces you to waste your life here. Why not put your energy and attention elsewhere?

[richardwoods]

Jun 20, 2019 8:44:24 GMT Peter Stirling said:

In the end who the hell cares eh?

This person said this, and this person said that, who the eff knows what's right, it's all a very long time ago and we are dealing ghosts, while our lives slip away being concerned about all this old crap.

😂😂😂

[markboulton]

Jun 20, 2019 8:44:24 GMT Peter Stirling said:

In the end who the hell cares eh?

This person said this, and this person said that, who the eff knows what's right, it's all a very long time ago and we are dealing ghosts, while our lives slip away being concerned about all this old crap.

I do hope Peter is trying to channel Harold Pinter for comic effect. Alternatively it could just be sour grapes for previously going off on a tangent and having it pointed out!