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Post by ianphillips on May 8, 2017 23:30:39 GMT
Just a quick question. I was watching Inferno recently and I found that a lot of the shots had a noticeably low resolution and I'm curious whether the monochrome prints had more definition or if the early Pertwee episodes were always fairly pixelated, regardless of whether they were color or monochrome.
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Post by Richard Bignell on May 9, 2017 7:50:06 GMT
There's certainly would have been nothing wrong with the definition of the original 625-line videotape, but that no longer exists.
Which version of Inferno are you watching?
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Post by ianphillips on May 9, 2017 15:20:20 GMT
I was referring to monochrome prints recovered By Sue Malden in 1978. Also, I'm watching the region 1, non special edition.  |
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Post by simonashby on May 9, 2017 17:20:23 GMT
They wouldn't have been pixellated... that's a digital artefact. So if you're seeing pixellation then you may be mistaking grain, or indeed a side effect of modern processing.
The existing colour tapes of Inferno are fairly crude conversions form 625 lines to 525 lines made back in the 1970s. That's just the way it was back then, and that's why they look pretty ropey. The monochrome film prints are of higher quality, but are still a generation down (the drop is quality would vary from recording to recording) from the original 625 line tapes.
You're also watching it on a NTSC DVD which has a lower resolution than the PAL ones. I can't comment on those as I haven't seen them, but it will look Inferior to region 2 DVDs.
So in short: No, the Pertwee stories always started out looking pretty crisp. Just that for many episodes, the original masters no longer exist. The copies we have today vary in quality for 2 main reasons: The technology to create copies wasn't all that sophisticated, and archiving policies (or lack thereof) were pretty hit and miss.
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Post by Richard Bignell on May 9, 2017 18:01:43 GMT
I was referring to monochrome prints recovered By Sue Malden in 1978. Also, I'm watching the region 1, non special edition. If you're watching the original edition, then I think it would make it a PAL to NTSC conversion that's been converted back to PAL again and then reconverted back to NTSC for the DVD. No wonder it looks a bit dodgy! The Special Edition is much better. |
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Post by martinjwills on May 9, 2017 20:13:39 GMT
There could be improvements done to the early conversion Pertwees, by using chroma dot recovery mixed with the original colour from the returned NTSC episodes or home recordings, but we have them in colour so they are low priority.
Converting back to PAL from NTSC took a lot of work, so then to reconvert to NTSC would make them practically unwatchable as the others have said. I would say the episodes that could be improved are the following
Doctor Who and the Silurians
Inferno
Terror of the Autons
The Dæmons [except the original episode 4]
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Post by ianphillips on May 9, 2017 21:01:13 GMT
There could be improvements done to the early conversion Pertwees, by using chroma dot recovery mixed with the original colour from the returned NTSC episodes or home recordings, but we have them in colour so they are low priority. Converting back to PAL from NTSC took a lot of work, so then to reconvert to NTSC would make them practically unwatchable as the others have said. I would say the episodes that could be improved are the following Doctor Who and the Silurians Inferno Terror of the Autons The Dæmons [except the original episode 4] Yes, I've always thought Terror of the Autons was a bit dodgy as well. |
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Post by Robert Lia on May 9, 2017 23:21:14 GMT
I have an original off air NTSC recording of Inferno from (1983) when it was re shown on WHYY 12 in Wilmington - Philadelphia as well as the R2 of the first edition of Inferno and the R2 special edition of Inferno as well.
The NTSC off air tape looks very good in my opinion for a 30 year old VHS tape. Keep in mind after it was recovered from the TV station in Vancouver BC it was re syndicated to the USA before it was sent back to the United Kingdom to take its place in the BBC Archive.
So that version we got back then was the original PAL to NTSC transfer.
So over all the R2 PAL Special edition DVD looks the best, then my off air copy in NTSC looks second best then in third place was the original R2 DVD. The NTSC BBC VHS release of Inferno was subject to the PAL / NTSC / PAL / NTSC process .
That broadcast also has the deleted scene from episode 5 in its proper place
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Post by ianphillips on May 10, 2017 0:45:34 GMT
Yes, my version of Inferno looks like this:    I'm not an expert on film quality for the era so I don't know whether the episode generally looks something like this or whether this is lower quality than average. Pixelated was the wrong word. What I meant was kind of blurry and unfocused. |
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Post by Robert Lia on May 10, 2017 1:16:49 GMT
Yeah you can tell that is the PAL . NTSC > PAL > NTSC version for sure
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Post by Richard Bignell on May 10, 2017 7:28:20 GMT
Yes, my version of Inferno looks like this: View AttachmentView AttachmentView AttachmentI'm not an expert on film quality for the era so I don't know whether the episode generally looks something like this or whether this is lower quality than average. Pixelated was the wrong word. What I meant was kind of blurry and unfocused. Take a look at the following YouTube comparison video between the original 2006 release and the later 2013 Special Edition. Inferno DVD ComparisonEven with YouTube's own compression, you can see a clear difference between the two - the first being the original PAL>NTSC>PAL>NTSC conversion and the latter taking the colour signal from the NTSC recording and remapping it onto the VidFired 16mm film recordings (still not as good as the original PAL VT, of course). |
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Post by Jaspal Cheema on May 13, 2017 19:58:09 GMT
Yes, my version of Inferno looks like this: View AttachmentView AttachmentView AttachmentI'm not an expert on film quality for the era so I don't know whether the episode generally looks something like this or whether this is lower quality than average. Pixelated was the wrong word. What I meant was kind of blurry and unfocused. Take a look at the following YouTube comparison video between the original 2006 release and the later 2013 Special Edition. Inferno DVD ComparisonEven with YouTube's own compression, you can see a clear difference between the two - the first being the original PAL>NTSC>PAL>NTSC conversion and the latter taking the colour signal from the NTSC recording and remapping it onto the VidFired 16mm film recordings (still not as good as the original PAL VT, of course). Absolutely fascinating Richard. |
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Post by Jaspal Cheema on May 14, 2017 11:01:25 GMT
But personally I love the degredation in the broadcast quality of the Pertwee serials from their original transmission! It gives them an eerie atmosphere which seems lacking in the restored colour versions! Mind of Evil is a case in point - the B/W VHS release for me was one of the best releases in the original video range. I prefer it over the recent DVD release which I find lacking. I suppose it harks back to my Fan-ish desire for bootlegs!
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Post by ianphillips on May 14, 2017 15:28:11 GMT
But personally I love the degredation in the broadcast quality of the Pertwee serials from their original transmission! It gives them an eerie atmosphere which seems lacking in the restored colour versions! Mind of Evil is a case in point - the B/W VHS release for me was one of the best releases in the original video range. I prefer it over the recent DVD release which I find lacking. I suppose it harks back to my Fan-ish desire for bootlegs! If they released B/W Pertwee on DVD I'd buy the heck out of that. I love black and white, more than color in a lot of cases and I really wish it was used more in modern cinema. You can bet your life that I'm going to be watching Heaven Sent in Black and White once I get season 9 on DVD. I'd love it if they released a black and white version of Inferno. I just can't stand unfocused images. |
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Post by Richard Marple on May 14, 2017 18:11:02 GMT
I remember DWM describing the B&W Pertwees as looking like independent films from the early 1960s. I'm sure even modern TVs can have the colour turned down to get the same effect.
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