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Post by cjones on Mar 17, 2014 18:39:59 GMT
At the risk of sounding trite, don't give up on this one! We may not have the technology now, but perhaps one day it will be possible to 'read' the image on the film without unrolling it. From the Wikipedia page on the Herculaneum papyri, it seems that techniques are being developed to read these badly-charred papyri without opening them first:
'In 2009, two intact Herculaneum papyri housed in the collections of the Institute de France in Paris were imaged using x-ray micro-computed tomography (micro-CT)...
The internal structure of the rolls was revealed to be extremely compact and convoluted, defeating the automatic unwrapping computer algorithms that the team had developed. Manual examination of small segments of the internal structure of the rolls proved more successful, revealing the individual fibres of the papyrus.
Unfortunately, no ink was visible on any of the small samples imaged, probably because carbon-based black inks had been used in antiquity, which have a much lower contrast to the blackened papyrus than inks with metallic bases.
Progress with this promising technique thus most likely depends on the development of higher resolution micro-CT scanners so that computer algorithms can be created that will unwrap rolls automatically. A method is also needed to increase the contrast between the carbon-based ink and the charred papyrus.'
It's quite a jump from a papyrus to a film, I know. But who knows. Maybe in the future we'll have phones with cameras and driverless cars... ;-)
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Post by chrisjbrady on Mar 18, 2014 11:27:41 GMT
If they can use a 3d laser or x-ray process or whatever to 'read' the burnt together layers of rolled up ancient scrolls then surely it could be possible to read the layers of the film? I suggest contacting the professional archivists at say the Library of Congress. Also put this problem out to the wider Internet community - someone might just have an answer.
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Post by Rob Moss on Mar 18, 2014 11:41:32 GMT
At the risk of sounding trite, don't give up on this one! We may not have the technology now, but perhaps one day it will be possible to 'read' the image on the film without unrolling it. From the Wikipedia page on the Herculaneum papyri, it seems that techniques are being developed to read these badly-charred papyri without opening them first: 'In 2009, two intact Herculaneum papyri housed in the collections of the Institute de France in Paris were imaged using x-ray micro-computed tomography (micro-CT)... The internal structure of the rolls was revealed to be extremely compact and convoluted, defeating the automatic unwrapping computer algorithms that the team had developed. Manual examination of small segments of the internal structure of the rolls proved more successful, revealing the individual fibres of the papyrus. Unfortunately, no ink was visible on any of the small samples imaged, probably because carbon-based black inks had been used in antiquity, which have a much lower contrast to the blackened papyrus than inks with metallic bases. Progress with this promising technique thus most likely depends on the development of higher resolution micro-CT scanners so that computer algorithms can be created that will unwrap rolls automatically. A method is also needed to increase the contrast between the carbon-based ink and the charred papyrus.' It's quite a jump from a papyrus to a film, I know. But who knows. Maybe in the future we'll have phones with cameras and driverless cars... ;-) I may be wrong here, but I suspect by the time we get to "one day", there'll be nothing left to scan.
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Mar 18, 2014 12:30:19 GMT
At the moment film is used less and less, so in the near future the knowledge will first decline rather than increase. So will the interest in morecambe & wise.
I have not heard of any statement (for the world, nor for 600 close & reliable facebook friends) that Phil might have found another M&W episode. If there is another lead somewhere else, we'll no doubt hear about it when there is actually something to report.
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Post by George D on Mar 18, 2014 15:32:45 GMT
Thank you for your time and dedication to these projects. Im sorry Im not more help however I am trying to do my best I know I dont know as much as you do about this stuff, but I thought it would be useful to gain an ally in film restoration if we need it. I will email him your thoughts and see if he has any additional thoughts. Also, if there is something in particular you wish me to ask him of course i will. Im curious if one would have to see it to know what could be done. Fortunately he did offer to look at it for no charge and give his thoughts (other than the shipping back/forth) If you feel this really is the last one, Im curious if this would be an option... Since the BFI looked at it. Maybe he can take a look, and then if he doesnt see hope, try your last ditch attempt? else if you want to do your last try on a sample first and then if it doesnt work, maybe send it to him, and then whatever happens? Also Im curious how much we should ask a favor if the gossip is true. (and I guess only you know that) If you feel there is another one out there, then that should be considered.. The choice is yours .. however since he is a professional offering to help us, Im hoping through both of our tact, we can build a positive relationship showing appreciation and keeping the door open whether we agreed with him or not. If you have anything else where I can be of help, please let me know and Ill do my best. Hi George, Yes, I have some Film Renew which I imported at great expense just for this film. I'm afraid that the film is too far gone even for Film Renew. One of the reasons that I cut the reel off the print is because it was plastic and the Film Renew is extremely corrosive to plastic. I didn't want the plastic to contaminate the film whilst it was soaking. But once I had gotten the reel off the film, I realised that it was too far gone for Film Renew to work. The emulsion is so unstable that the mere act of adding or pouring the solution into the can would cause the emulsion to separate. It is a terrible state of affairs, but there you go. Film Renew is not the answer to this film. Regards, Paul
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Post by Alex Dering on Mar 18, 2014 16:34:30 GMT
Of course, if a second copy of the film is found in the theoretical haul, all of this could become irrelevant. (And I notice that the Omnirumour seems to have dropped to coma level.)
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Mar 18, 2014 20:12:41 GMT
Or somewhere else.
The omnirumour was the one that nearly all the missing DW had been found? No-one could take that seriously, it's just so vastly improbable. One has to be quite gullible to believe that.
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Post by George D on Mar 18, 2014 22:02:28 GMT
To answer rwels: if people werent gullable there would be no con men On the topic of the film print: The gentlemen said the following regarding filmrenew after sharing Pauls concern. "Hi George, The Film Renew, in and of itself, will not cause or greatly effect the potential emulsion delamination based on our experience. You could make the argument that film renew makes the potential for being able to unwind the film greater and therefore unwinding the film could increase the amount of delamination of the emulsion, but film renew itself is very mild based on our experience There is no other substance or process that I am aware of for "un-sticking" or "re-plasticizing" a roll of film which has the convolutions welded together and there is no guarantee even with film renew. Hope this helps..." At any rate, the decision on how to go forward is in Paul's hands. Everyone has a different comfort level and I personally would not feel that i would have the skill to do it. But others might have different experiences.
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Post by markboulton on Mar 18, 2014 22:55:41 GMT
Personally I'd like the Film Renew to be given a chance, and if it doesn't work, hey ho, no net change. But I'm always sceptical of anyone, no matter how knowledgeable, who says something just simply won't work, and won't try it in case they turn out to be mistaken. All the experts at the BBC said Colour Recovery wasn't possible twenty years ago, and that it was a hiding to nothing, etc.
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Post by markboulton on Mar 18, 2014 23:07:38 GMT
Here's my thought on what I would try if I had the ability to build such a contraption - and the time to monitor it and the ideal conditions in which to run it without atmospheric contamination:
I'd build a rig that contains a pair of porous rollers that turn VEEERRRRYYYY slowly (as in, something like one revolution every 3 days) and introduce tiny droplets of Film Renew through them, and feed the end of the film through them. The inside of the film loop would be held very loosely in place by one fixed spindle, about 15 inches away. There would be a porous wedge-shaped block that also feeds droplets of Film Renew through its surface, placed with the pointed end nestling up between the free layer of film and the next winding - i.e. what are, to begin with, welded together.
I would hope that, given the slow rotation of the rollers, and the slow penetration of the wedge in between the layers of film, that it could be eased off and the pressure of the film against the wedge and rollers might, along with the Film Renew, 'bake' the emulsion and substrate together on one side but allow them to be teased apart on the other.
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Post by markboulton on Mar 18, 2014 23:11:12 GMT
BTW What's the betting that most DVD-Rs will be suffering from vinegar syndrome within about 15 years?
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Mar 18, 2014 23:13:13 GMT
Here's my thought on what I would try if I had the ability to build such a contraption - and the time to monitor it and the ideal conditions in which to run it without atmospheric contamination: I'd build a rig that contains a pair of porous rollers that turn VEEERRRRYYYY slowly (as in, something like one revolution every 3 days) and introduce tiny droplets of Film Renew through them, and feed the end of the film through them. The inside of the film loop would be held very loosely in place by one fixed spindle, about 15 inches away. There would be a porous wedge-shaped block that also feeds droplets of Film Renew through its surface, placed with the pointed end nestling up between the free layer of film and the next winding - i.e. what are, to begin with, welded together. I would hope that, given the slow rotation of the rollers, and the slow penetration of the wedge in between the layers of film, that it could be eased off and the pressure of the film against the wedge and rollers might, along with the Film Renew, 'bake' the emulsion and substrate together on one side but allow them to be teased apart on the other. With such slow speed you could also take a picture of each frame at several points in case the best result doesn't always occur in the same place in this chain. It's a bit of a custom job though. Someone with lots of spare parts might build it, but we might also be dreaming.
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Post by George D on Mar 19, 2014 2:12:28 GMT
I cant tell Paul what to do this.. but this is what i would do if i was in his situation.
I would first have a heart to heart talk with Phil to determine if this is the only known print.
Once that is determined, then i would have the experts give it a try. Im not recommending any method. I dont know how it will turn out. Im simply passing information along. The fact that paul bought film renew implies he heard it from someone else also. Assuming its the only known print, the fact that the process could develop monitoring and timing, id let the experts who have done it in the past do it. Practice makes perfect. I cant say it will work, just that that direction appears to have the most likely odds of success.
Again, i am simply passing info along and do not wish to be responsible whatever decision is made. As the old saying goes, One has to pick their poison. Its Pauls print and its his decision, not mine.
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Mar 19, 2014 10:13:22 GMT
I would first have a heart to heart talk with Phil to determine if this is the only known print. Morris isn't omniscient, you know that, right?
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Post by Rob Moss on Mar 19, 2014 10:22:12 GMT
BTW What's the betting that most DVD-Rs will be suffering from vinegar syndrome within about 15 years? Vinegar syndrome only affects acetate film, not DVDs. There is a condition known as Disc Rot which affects CDs and DVDs, which is worth bearing in mind if you have a large collection of DVD-Rs. Personally, I would advise making back-up images of any DVDs you burn and storing them on an external hard drive. hopefully you won't be unlucky enough that your disc rots and your hard drive fails at the same time. Another option would be to consider burning two copies of every disc, using different brands of blank media, and checking the discs regularly.
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