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Post by andyc on Dec 3, 2015 9:32:11 GMT
Not sure if this has been discussed previously, but there were one or two mentions in the episode of "I'm in 12" - or something similar. The Doctor referenced it later by saying "it's in Room 12", but are we all assuming that it really means Doctor #12 ?
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Post by Paul McDermott on Dec 3, 2015 9:55:55 GMT
Not sure if this has been discussed previously, but there were one or two mentions in the episode of "I'm in 12" - or something similar. The Doctor referenced it later by saying "it's in Room 12", but are we all assuming that it really means Doctor #12 ? I think it's a valid reading Andy, to be sure. The plaque that was buried held the clue, but there were complementary meanings. True as it was that Room 12 was the way out, the secrets his captors sought were also within Capaldi's 12th Doctor. Hence the Poe-like hellish torment they stuck him in, whether or not they anticipated he might call upon his legendary resourcefulness and escape! It's also true that The Veil was also in Room 12 to deliver the killing blow to the Doctor, over and over, for 2 billion years. So, there's more than one way to look at things, I think. Now, whether that final line in Heaven Sent is to be taken literally, that the Doctor is indeed the hybrid They (whichever bunch on Gallifrey) are searching for, or just "a" hybrid (a la the '96 telemovie) or it's just a big fat lie or even skilful misdirection (Ashildr being Me, after all) - we'll have to wait and see! He could even be mistaken! But it's a heck of a lot of fun to ponder the angles. This year is a definite high water mark in quality Who, and not just because it submerged all those skulls!
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Post by Paul McDermott on Dec 3, 2015 13:21:29 GMT
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Post by Dale Rumbold on Dec 3, 2015 14:59:26 GMT
After the explanations from Paul and Tony (thank you both) I now realise that I actually understand much less than I thought : I didn't even realise he'd been in a teleporter! What made him go in there then? And why was everything repeating endlessly? And I hadn't noticed any reference to a 'hybrid' before this episode, and now can barely remember any in the episode either. I can't follow story-lines split over more than 1 episode unless they are explicitly re-capped at the start (in a 'Previously' segment ala SG1 for instance) which is why I find Moffat's long-ranging story-arcs so frustrating, where you're meant to remember a throw-away comment from 4 series ago to make sense of the latest episode ; also his constant insistence on the Doctor re-writing his own history, something that never happened in the old days. As to events in The Day of the Doctor : I couldn't make head nor tail of it at the time, and certainly have no memory of any of the detail of it 2 years on. I guess I'd better stop doing anything else in my life at all and make sure I re-watch every previous 'new' Doctor Who episode every week before the latest one airs, then maybe I'll keep up.
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Post by Patrick Coles on Dec 3, 2015 15:45:57 GMT
you couldn't make head or tail of it...?
don't worry...neither does Moffat !
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Post by Paul McDermott on Dec 3, 2015 16:08:26 GMT
After the explanations from Paul and Tony (thank you both) I now realise that I actually understand much less than I thought : I didn't even realise he'd been in a teleporter! What made him go in there then? And why was everything repeating endlessly? And I hadn't noticed any reference to a 'hybrid' before this episode, and now can barely remember any in the episode either. I can't follow story-lines split over more than 1 episode unless they are explicitly re-capped at the start (in a 'Previously' segment ala SG1 for instance) which is why I find Moffat's long-ranging story-arcs so frustrating, where you're meant to remember a throw-away comment from 4 series ago to make sense of the latest episode ; also his constant insistence on the Doctor re-writing his own history, something that never happened in the old days. As to events in The Day of the Doctor : I couldn't make head nor tail of it at the time, and certainly have no memory of any of the detail of it 2 years on. I guess I'd better stop doing anything else in my life at all and make sure I re-watch every previous 'new' Doctor Who episode every week before the latest one airs, then maybe I'll keep up. Hey Dale, remember the end of Face The Raven? It wasn't just Clara dying, it was the Doctor realising he was caught in a trap Ashildr had arranged for him with the assistance of mysterious allies. The Doctor goes to help open the stasis chamber that not-at-all murdered lady was being kept in, and finds the controls need the TARDIS key to do it. He knows that it's a trap but he is compelled to free her. In so doing, his arm gets clamped with a teleport bracelet he can't remove, that sends him away to his destination in Heaven Sent. At the other end, he steps out of the teleport booth and there he begins a cruel and unusual punishment...for what? Fear that after being victorious in the Time War, he might return to Gallifrey with grand and dangerous notions, like Rassilon? Or was this a delayed judgement for his unseen actions that still fill him remorse? Maybe the high visibility way the Doctor conducts himself might have been considered a risk to the ongoing security of Gallifrey, who might at any moment be noticed again by a cosmos of his enemies seeking revenge. Things repeated because he had no other way out of the castle except to punch through the wall to escape. It took a very long cycle of Doctor doing that, then dying, using his body as fuel to power the machine to restore the pattern of himself in the teleporter from the moment he first arrived, until finally he was able to step out onto the surface of Gallifrey. Because that stored pattern was of his first instant in the castle, he did what he'd do the first time over and over, leading up to realising what was going on with the stars and why he scrawled BIRD in the dust. When the story first opens, he eventually finds out he's been doing it for 7000 years or so, but by the end of the ep 2 billion years. The peppering of things like "hybrids" through the series hasn't really been kept subtle. Davros and the Doctor talk a bit about them and Gallifrey, and there's loads of other hybrids on show this year. Series 9 is going out of its way to try to get you to notice nuggets like this, even if the why of it isn't always clear until later. This isn't just a Moffat thing though, we've had this approach to narrative structure across the season all the way to the first innings in 2005 with repeated references to Bad Wolf. Generally, I do agree that the time travel aspect of the Doctor's lifestyle - and the risks that come with it - have become more to the fore in recent times. Personally I see that as a good thing, rather than not. There's been a bit of that this year and I expect there's a bit extra to come in Hell Bent. Hopefully you'll like the finale, and I shouldn't get too flummoxed if you can't follow it all as clearly as you might! You may also find it helpful to hit up a Wikipedia entry or even the BBC's own Doctor Who site for episode details after viewing, if there's elements that you can't quite figure out. Many fans make light work of such things these days! Or just ask, as you have here!
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Post by Tony Ingram on Dec 3, 2015 18:22:29 GMT
After the explanations from Paul and Tony (thank you both) I now realise that I actually understand much less than I thought : I didn't even realise he'd been in a teleporter! What made him go in there then? He was teleported at the end of the previous episode. This was explained on screen in the episode itself. To explain it would basically require recapping the entire episode which you actually watched anyway. The references have been running through the entire series, beginning with the conversation between the Doctor and Davros in the second episode, and everything the Doctor said in about the last five or ten minutes of the episode related to it. No offence, but I don't think this is really anyone else's problem. Thing is, you're basically complaining, not specifically about how Doctor Who is made now, but about how most serialised TV drama is made now. It's what people are used to, what they seem to like, and most of the audience of series' like Doctor Who, Gotham, Game of Thrones, Arrow or whatever have no problem recalling events from week to week, month to month or even year to year. This is not a problem with the writers. They are simply making serialised drama as serialised drama is now made. You seem to be expecting them to make it as it was made decades ago, instead. If they did that, half the current audience would just switch off because they'd be bored silly by it. For the last couple of generations, people have grown up with incredibly complex and fast moving movies, TV shows and games which require them to take in and retain a lot of information, it's how their brains are wired these days. Basically, if you want to follow these stories, you really need to pay constant attention or there's just no point.
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Post by Tony Ingram on Dec 3, 2015 19:03:53 GMT
you couldn't make head or tail of it...? don't worry...neither does Moffat ! I've heard this comment before. Still sounds like nonsense.
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Post by Tony Ingram on Dec 3, 2015 19:06:20 GMT
Interesting. there's clearly been a change in leadership while they've been away.
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Post by Patrick Coles on Dec 3, 2015 19:22:20 GMT
In your opinion !
anyway you spout enough nonsense we have to read left, right & centre !
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Post by Tony Ingram on Dec 3, 2015 19:24:58 GMT
In your opinion ! anyway you spout enough nonsense we have to read left, right & centre ! Examples, please?
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Post by Dale Rumbold on Dec 3, 2015 21:16:52 GMT
Thing is, you're basically complaining, not specifically about how Doctor Who is made now, but about how most serialised TV drama is made now. It's what people are used to, what they seem to like, and most of the audience of series' like Doctor Who, Gotham, Game of Thrones, Arrow or whatever have no problem recalling events from week to week, month to month or even year to year. This is not a problem with the writers. They are simply making serialised drama as serialised drama is now made. You seem to be expecting them to make it as it was made decades ago, instead. If they did that, half the current audience would just switch off because they'd be bored silly by it. For the last couple of generations, people have grown up with incredibly complex and fast moving movies, TV shows and games which require them to take in and retain a lot of information, it's how their brains are wired these days. Basically, if you want to follow these stories, you really need to pay constant attention or there's just no point. There's the rub : I deliberately avoid nonsense like Game of Thrones, and haven't watched feature films this millennium, precisely because an old git like me can't follow the plot-lines in them. However, Dr Who is a show I've watched since I was 4 years old, and I don't see why new-fangled ideas of what makes good drama for bored teenagers should apply to it. I have to say that I DO pay constant attention to every episode but that doesn't enable me to dredge up obscure ideas from weeks/months/years ago, any more than when I watch a football match can I remember every previous pass/shot/goal in every previous football match that I have ever watched. I could start writing every thing down, pausing each episode at every scene change, but ... life's too short (especially for someone my age and with my diagnosis!)
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Post by Paul McDermott on Dec 4, 2015 0:45:57 GMT
Interesting. there's clearly been a change in leadership while they've been away. I wonder how long has passed between the events of The Time Of The Doctor and now? Clearly the dust has settled, they've rebuilt from the damage caused by the Daleks - and for all we know, Rassilon in The End Of Time - and there's been opportunity to sort out a structure of government again. In the 50th, it rather looked a bit like The General was pretty much on his own, but it doesn't look like he's decided to take the reins of power after things reverted to a more peaceful state. Whatever comes, I think he's one of the few reliable sorts there, a bit like Spandrell in The Deadly Assassin. The Matrix being in the inky depths beneath the citadel is cool, ditto the Cloister wraiths. I'm glad that as with the death of a companion, a return to an unbroken Gallifrey has been held off until there was a good reason and the time and money to do it properly. If we never go back there for another five years, I think we'll still get a lot to smile about in Hell Bent, for a long time. The careful management of limited funds this year deserves an award in its own right, really. The clips we've seen of the finale really look amazing, from location shoots and skilful CG to aerial capture and lovely costumes, a sizeable and notable cast and so many items on the fan lore wish list. Near as I can see, we're getting Christmas a few weeks early! Perhaps the "eggs all in one basket" problem that Gallifrey faces will be resolved, either by force of argument or tragedy, in that we may see a diaspora of the folks who live there spreading out through time and space, to settle and roam quietly like the Zygon refugees? I'd really hate to see Gallifrey destroyed again, it'd be redundant. One of the things I liked best about how Moffat met the challenges of its fate in the Time War is that we saw the ordinary nice folks - including other Time Lords, not just the rural types that live outside the Citadel - were unwilling victims, in need of justice. If the Doctor's people lose their home, maybe going out into the cosmos as the Doctor did to learn and grow could perhaps one day serve to bridge a gap of understanding and build a better future for all parties. Of course there's risks, to themselves and to everyone else - but that's as true staying put, as we've seen. It may be that just a little of this is behind the Doctor's fear that saw him leave in the first place. Mind you, after losing Clara for her embodying his capacity for selflessness and optimism, the Doctor confronting such a widespread popular sentiment may suddenly find himself on the side of those old guard Time Lords who have long held him up as a bad example, threatening the safety of Gallifrey!
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Post by Paul McDermott on Dec 4, 2015 4:10:42 GMT
DOCTOR: You can probably still hear me, so just between ourselves, you've got the prophecy wrong. The Hybrid is not half Dalek. Nothing is half Dalek. The Daleks would never allow that. Oh yeah, Doctor? What's Davros then?
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Post by Paul McDermott on Dec 4, 2015 4:35:20 GMT
It's funny the things you notice if you look and look, maybe too deeply! Take the title of the Series 9 finale wherein the Doctor returns to Gallifrey and aims to misbehave: Hell Bent. Hell Bent. He'll Ben't. He'll Be Not (The Doctor)? And there's a line in the trailer where the General questions the Doctor, asking GENERAL: Isn't this going a little far? The Doctor replies in a line which might stir memories amongst some viewers: DOCTOR: I've barely started! Cast your mind back to the end of the first story of The Trial Of A Time Lord, The Mysterious Planet: DOCTOR: Well, if the rest of his presentation is as riveting as the first little epic, wake me when it's finished. VALEYARD: Finished? I've barely started. Moffat name checked The Big V in The Name Of The Doctor. Perhaps some forces on Gallifrey feel that what the Time Lords really need to protect themselves and assert their dominance over time and space, is to bring forth the suppressed darker aspects of the Doctor's nature embodied in the persona we saw in Season 23. He need not look like the man we saw back then, or any since. Indeed, he may even be working to rid the turbulent Doctor off his own bat somehow, perhaps from within the Matrix? A force as capable as the Doctor but with no qualms about how he achieves victory might be just what the right kind of delusional functionary thinks will solve their problems. They apparently got a taste of that with the War Doctor, and perhaps they liked it. And who knows, they might be trying to evolve Capaldi's model to that world view through the torments he's suffered in Face The Raven and Heaven Sent...
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