What shows/episodes definitely lost forever?

[Brian Fretwell]

From the DVD and the booklet with it the Quatermass film recordings were bad mainly due to the old Emitron cameras at Alexadra Palace. The continuity after Ep 2 looks much better quality.

[Michael]

Regarding Rediffusion's The Infromer ep 1 from first seris and a seris two ep exist;they were remastered onto digibeta some years ago when Kalidascope paid for them to be transffered from 16mm.
They have been shown at kalidascaope events.

[John G]

Michael.
That is interesting about
The Informer. Hope its true?


Andrew that is good news about Ryan International didnt it finish off Keiran Moore for some reason?

[Matthew]

On the subject of the possible existance of Doctor Who, Planet of The Giants, episodes 3 and 4, there were several copies produced, it was mentioned on the Restoration Team 's website forum, that 16mm viewing copies of episodes 3 and 4 were made, before editing them into one episode, and 3 and 4's videotapes were film recorded onto 35mm film, but only the 35mm print was actually edited down, the 35mm negatives of 3 and 4 were retained for a few years.

Also the 35mm prints' film trims could have been retrieved from the cutting room floor and kept by someone.

[ethantyler]

Matthew said:

On the subject of the possible existance of Doctor Who, Planet of The Giants, episodes 3 and 4, there were several copies produced, it was mentioned on the Restoration Team 's website forum, that 16mm viewing copies of episodes 3 and 4 were made, before editing them into one episode, and 3 and 4's videotapes were film recorded onto 35mm film, but only the 35mm print was actually edited down, the 35mm negatives of 3 and 4 were retained for a few years. Also the 35mm prints' film trims could have been retrieved from the cutting room floor and kept by someone.

Personally, I would say that it was possible that someone had stolen the footage/episodes, but extremely doubtful. I suspect that there is documentation confirming that the films were junked, but I have no idea how reliable such evidence is. Also, bare in mind also that this was in 1964 (?), many years prior to the infamous junking era and presumably there would have been a greater risk stealing film cans at that time rather than during the junking era when the films were being thrown out anyway and in a very disorganised fashion from what I gather.

[James Phillips]

I think there's a distinction to be drawn between "definitely" and "almost certainly" lost. The only programmes you can say are definitely lost are those which were broadcast before the advent of home VTRs, or which were never transmitted.

Anything that was sold overseas, or film recorded for that purpose could conceivably still be in existence, although again, in the case of programmes with records of destruction it's highly unlikely.

Any show which was broadcast after the introduction of domestic VTRs has the remote potential to be out there somewhere, however unlikely that may be.

A lot of the posters in this thread need to look at their lists and consider which categories apply...

[andrew martin]

ethantyler said:

Matthew said:

On the subject of the possible existance of Doctor Who, Planet of The Giants, episodes 3 and 4, there were several copies produced, it was mentioned on the Restoration Team 's website forum, that 16mm viewing copies of episodes 3 and 4 were made, before editing them into one episode, and 3 and 4's videotapes were film recorded onto 35mm film, but only the 35mm print was actually edited down, the 35mm negatives of 3 and 4 were retained for a few years. Also the 35mm prints' film trims could have been retrieved from the cutting room floor and kept by someone.

Personally, I would say that it was possible that someone had stolen the footage/episodes, but extremely doubtful. I suspect that there is documentation confirming that the films were junked, but I have no idea how reliable such evidence is. Also, bare in mind also that this was in 1964 (?), many years prior to the infamous junking era and presumably there would have been a greater risk stealing film cans at that time rather than during the junking era when the films were being thrown out anyway and in a very disorganised fashion from what I gather.

As per the post elsewhere, the 'infamous junking period' is a bit of a misnomer: BBC Enterprises film recordings were kept and later junked at one site, while master VT recordings were kept then junked at another (in the first half of the 70s); master film material was kept at the main film archive - in the latter's case, junking of film sequences and programmes no longer required was a continuous process, not a sudden event. Actually, that would have been true of Enterprises material too to some extent, although it certainly is the case that by the mid-70s it must have seemed suddenly more apparent that the market for b/w film recordings in general was starting to dry up, hence the decision to junk so much. VT too was an ongoing 'victim' of wiping for re-use, that was indeed its saving grace - it was expensive but reusable! Quite a few VT programmes that do survive from the late 60s/early 70s are in fact Enterprises copies rather than the original tx master tapes.

[John Stewart Miller]

Duncan said:

I know for example that the 'Feast of Steven' episode of the Daleks' Masterplan is gone for good since it was only screened in the UK, was not transferred to 16mm film, and the only copy (the original videotape) was wiped. But what other cases are there where we can me almost certain that an episode/show won't be turning up again?

Bear in mind, as I said to Richard Bignall on this subject on another thread, the diverse nature behind how copies of missing shows in recent years have been found places a question mark over whether the show is 'lost for good'. This doesn't mean an 'as I enjoyed Evil of the Daleks episode 7 surely I can pray it to exist' scenario; but a case of the sources diversifying & expanding. The T/R of the 1965 TOTP rehearsel that exists wasn't supposed to officially recorded, and yet someone managed to access a telecine point.

Though 'Feast' was documented as not being telecined, Bob Monkhouse owned a home video system in 1966. It is probably laughably unlikely anyone like B.M. would have recorded 'Feast' off air, but you will appreciate from what we now now, the possibility of such an occurence remains.

[John Stewart Miller]

P.S. For 'now now' read 'know now' - hasty posting!!

[Laurence Piper]

James said:

I think there's a distinction to be drawn between "definitely" and "almost certainly" lost. The only programmes you can say are definitely lost are those which were broadcast before the advent of home VTRs, or which were never transmitted.

Exactly. Never say never!

[Steve Tyler]

No one can confidentally say that a particular television series or episode has undoubtebly gone forever though one can confidentally say that a particular television series or episode has very probably gone forever. Most of the replies already made fall into the latter category such episodes as Doctor Who, The Feast of Steven.

[John Stewart Miller]

Matthew said:

Could, at least, the beginning and ends of episodes 3-6 of The Quatermass Experiment exist on PasB film recordings of the programmes that immediately preceeded it and followed it?

I know that, as the film recording process of that era was alleged judged to be of too low a quality to be usefully used to record episodes 3-6 of TQE it's unlikely that it was used to f/r other dramas, but was anything broadcast of enough historic significance before or after episodes 3-6, that it was f/red dispite the low quality?

I know the following re: ‘Quatermass experiment’. The sequence where Victor Carroon (Duncan Lamont) was seen taking a boy to a cinema was supposed to have been recorded as a film stock insert. Presumably this was played in to the live transmission and junked after broadcast.

The off monitor telesnaps were presumably by John Cura to record the serial for the director.

According to a TIMESCREEN mag listing, late 1980s, episodes 3 to 5 were ‘recorded by BBC transcription service only’. I thought they had been affected by a union strike, which reputedly meant other BBC staff ‘found the telecine rooms locked up and inaccessible’ or similar words quoted.

Later reports alledge ‘the chief telecine operator was disappointed by the poor quality of episodes 1 and 2 and refused to record the remainder of the serial’. He’s quoted as having used the words ‘I’ve got standards you know’.

An NFA publication contests this slightly. Though 35mm recording seems to have been aborted, it was proposed; (referring back to TIMESCREENS separate comments); that episodes 3 to 5 (or at least segments) were recorded. This was so that each successive episode could use recaps of the previous ones footage. Presumably a lower quality 16mm stock was used as this was only for brief recaps. This does not include episode 6 where, as there was no following episode, no recording for recap use was required.