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Post by Paul Vanezis on Sept 17, 2012 22:50:22 GMT
Guys,
Over the past few years, a lot more information has come to light regarding overseas sales and the subsequent destruction of those prints. Once the information has been cross referenced and verified all will be revealed.
What I should say though is that all archive selectors at the BBC actively pursued overseas leads given to them, including Adam Lee. Adam was the person who funded the original colour restorations and is therefore one of the people who enabled the Restoration Team to come into being.
Regards,
Paul
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Post by Jon Preddle on Sept 17, 2012 22:52:14 GMT
Has anyone thought of asking someone who worked at enterprises in the 1970s what the codes mean? These codes were likely written by the broadcaster, not the BBC, so it's unlikely the BBC would know. I'm now thinking that since some directors followed instructions to work in a fade to black at an appropriate mid-way transition point, and some directors *didn't*, Enterprises may have had to insert fades into some of the film recordings. And it was logical to send the prints in two halves instead of splicing them back together for the convenience of transporting fewer film cans, as doing that would kind of defeat the purpose of splitting them in the first place! The durations written on the labels are actually several seconds longer than the broadcast durations, which does suggest there is extra 'footage' by way of the fades...
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Post by Steven Sigel on Sept 18, 2012 3:10:53 GMT
@jon I don't think they would have sent prints in two pieces -- a) doesn't make any sense - you would want the entire episode to be on a single reel/core - less weight for shipping for one thing, and keeps the whole episode together. Also since many stations showed them without commercials, it wouldn't have made sense from that perspective either b) It would have been too much work - the prints came out of the lab on a single core - it would have been too much work to cut each and every print and c) anecdotal evidence says it's non true - all of the actual 60s original prints I have are NOT spliced. If anyone cut them, it would have had to have been the TV station involved in screening them.
UPDATE: I just put Episode 5 of "Ice Warriors" on the rewind and found the fade-to-black in the middle. There is NO splice printed into my print, which means that there is NO physical splice in the original print.
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Post by George D on Sept 18, 2012 3:21:52 GMT
Jon- I admire your thinking however, looking at the labels, it looks to me like the main writing is BBC Enterprises. In other words, I believe they would not have put blank labels on the cans so the thick black marker i think is their writing and appears written all in the same hand. If a broadcaster put a sticker on it, then it would have their logo, not BBC Enterprises. The corner writing could be by a station though. Also, the real 2 of 2 on Ice Warriors 6 would imply we just had the second half but we have the whole episode. It could mean that they had two prints of some and one of others. Also, the 14b could refer to their storage location in the archive, so when returned they knew where to put it. Im not making this a theory.. just a probably untrue wild guess. The only label that mentions a "join in both reels" is the elusive Fury from the Deep 6. This one is the only one in a smaller 35mm can which makes me wonder if this particular episode was cut in two pieces on two different reels and put into the 35mm tin which may hold two smaller 16mm reels. It would have been interesting if the person who sent the films from Villers House could have related if they were sending an empty or full can. The reality though is that somewhere someone emptied the can My thoughts still remain that someone who worked for enterprises in the 1970s might shed some light on what the codes mean. I know you have more experience with these things than me, but thats my two cents. Paul- While I am glad to hear that all archive selectors followed up on leads, it would have been great to hear that those in enterprises (whom prints were retured to) had the same diligence. Sadly, I dont hear the same thing about them. Also, I appreciate the research youre putting into figuring out the overseas sales and I look forward to the results after you've done your checking. I got a feeling the news aint gonna be good, but sometimes it brings closure to find the dead body's location rather than wonder if its dead. Of course, i hope to be proven wrong and more finds appear which i think is all our wish
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Post by Jon Preddle on Sept 18, 2012 4:06:08 GMT
Jon- I admire your thinking however, looking at the labels, it looks to me like the main writing is BBC Enterprises. In other words, I believe they would not have put blank labels on the cans so the thick black marker i think is their writing and appears written all in the same hand. If a broadcaster put a sticker on it, then it would have their logo, not BBC Enterprises. The corner writing could be by a station though. Hi George. I think you've misunderstood me... The 'black' marker writing, which is story title, BBC Ent code, duration, length, etc, is the writing of a BBC Ent staff. But the 16B, 11C, 2A written in biro, looks to be something the broadcaster has added later. Or they could be something that BBC Ent added once the films came back...
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Post by Jon Preddle on Sept 18, 2012 4:09:42 GMT
Also, the real 2 of 2 on Ice Warriors 6 would imply we just had the second half but we have the whole episode. The markings on the cans reflect how the eps were sent out (A+B separately), not how they were when they came back (A+B spliced back together). But given Steven's info above, this may not be the case. now. Makes my head hurt!
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Post by Jon Preddle on Sept 18, 2012 4:16:37 GMT
@jon I don't think they would have sent prints in two pieces -- a) doesn't make any sense - you would want the entire episode to be on a single reel/core - less weight for shipping for one thing, and keeps the whole episode together. Also since many stations showed them without commercials, it wouldn't have made sense from that perspective either b) It would have been too much work - the prints came out of the lab on a single core - it would have been too much work to cut each and every print and c) anecdotal evidence says it's non true - all of the actual 60s original prints I have are NOT spliced. If anyone cut them, it would have had to have been the TV station involved in screening them. Gibraltar is the only station of the four to air both serials that broadcast in a 30 min slot; they must have had ads, and therefore the only one to benefit from the fades to black, or a cut film. Gibraltar isn't that far from the UK, so shipping weight might not have been an issue (two half reels weigh the same as one full reel, no?). It might have been ONLY the Gibraltar prints that were cut in this manner, not all of them, per (b). The prints sent to BBC Sydney for distribution to Australia, NZ, Singapore and Hong Kong would not have been cut, and shipped on one reel, per (a). Maybe Gibraltar didn't have cutting facilities and asked BBC Ent to do it for them, per (c). Even if the films don't have splice, you can't deny that the cans clearly state A and B reels. All very odd...
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Post by Jon Preddle on Sept 18, 2012 4:17:26 GMT
UPDATE: I just put Episode 5 of "Ice Warriors" on the rewind and found the fade-to-black in the middle. There is NO splice printed into my print, which means that there is NO physical splice in the original print. Did you look just at the f-t-b or elsewhere in the film for a splice?
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Post by Jon Preddle on Sept 18, 2012 4:44:25 GMT
The BBC stickers are all preprinted with Reel.... of ..... on them, so obviously the BBC did send programmes in two pieces - or maybe more if longer? - from time to time. Here's a BBC can with Reel 1 of 2, sent to New Zealand, across the ditch from Sydney, albeit for a longer 75min programme: Uploaded with ImageShack.usThere's a picture of a label for Evil of the Daleks ep 2 on a missing eps website (somewhere!) floating around, and if you look carefully you can make out a Reel 2 of 2 on the label beneath the sticker on top, but that can't have come back from Gibraltar, it didn't screen there.
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Post by John Andersen on Sept 18, 2012 6:59:09 GMT
I can't really point you to a specific source on this matter, but that is exactly what I have heard on a few occasions. Who knows what may have travelled half way around the world to arrive back at the BBC and then to be quietly snuffed out............. Quite a shame really. Perhaps one of our members can shed a little more light on this? Late 1981/early 1982 saw the destruction of a batch of recently returned Dr Who episodes. Source; Wiped, page 209. >:(I tried counting to ten in order to cool off, but I only got to three before my blood pressure went through the roof. If those episodes were lost Hartnell or Troughton prints, then I am at a complete loss to describe what I am feeling at this moment. I mean, there was supposedly a directive that black and white Doctor Who prints were not supposed to be junked anymore after the archive was formed in 1978, wasn't there? If the prints were returned to BBC Enterprises and destroyed, who was in charge there at the time?
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Post by Neil Megson on Sept 18, 2012 8:20:43 GMT
Re : splices in prints - why would the print have to be physically cut at the point of a commercial break ? Presumably commercials were played in from a separate machine anyway, so wouldn't it just be a matter of fading out / stopping the Dr.Who telecine, playing the commercials, and then re-starting the Dr.Who episode ? It seems very unlikely that commercials were physically spliced into the print at the episode break - for an evening's TV, you would need multiple copies of each advert, and these would then have to be edited together, spliced into the print, and removed afterwards and dis-assembled - it seems far too much work !
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Post by Jon Preddle on Sept 18, 2012 8:47:38 GMT
Re : splices in prints - why would the print have to be physically cut at the point of a commercial break ? Presumably commercials were played in from a separate machine anyway, so wouldn't it just be a matter of fading out / stopping the Dr.Who telecine, playing the commercials, and then re-starting the Dr.Who episode ? It seems very unlikely that commercials were physically spliced into the print at the episode break - for an evening's TV, you would need multiple copies of each advert, and these would then have to be edited together, spliced into the print, and removed afterwards and dis-assembled - it seems far too much work ! Nope. Back in the 'primitive' 1960s and 1970s, when there was maybe one commercial break per hour (we're not talking about the US, where TV is nothing but ads!) the ads were indeed spliced directly into the film print itself, so there was a continuous run. And, yes, they were removed afterwards. Not "too much work" at all; that's how it was done in those days. (Although, sometimes they got left in. As I've mentioned in this forum recently that I've seen paperwork of examples where foreign prints of shows have arrived in NZ, still with the previous station's adverts spliced in.)
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Post by Rob Moss on Sept 18, 2012 8:54:10 GMT
Such a shame. I suppose this is where I should make a wistful comment about wishing I had a time machine :/ If that though has only just occurred to you, you need to hand back your Fan Card! ;D
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Post by Neil Megson on Sept 18, 2012 9:14:15 GMT
the ads were indeed spliced directly into the film print itself, so there was a continuous run. And, yes, they were removed afterwards. Not "too much work" at all; that's how it was done in those days. I admit I'm surprised. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Post by Steven Sigel on Sept 18, 2012 14:51:21 GMT
The BBC stickers are all preprinted with Reel.... of ..... on them, so obviously the BBC did send programmes in two pieces - or maybe more if longer? - from time to time. Here's a BBC can with Reel 1 of 2, sent to New Zealand, across the ditch from Sydney, albeit for a longer 75min programme: Uploaded with ImageShack.usThere's a picture of a label for Evil of the Daleks ep 2 on a missing eps website (somewhere!) floating around, and if you look carefully you can make out a Reel 2 of 2 on the label beneath the sticker on top, but that can't have come back from Gibraltar, it didn't screen there. Jon - a 73 minute film would have to be on 2 reels. the absolute maximum 16mm run time on a packed to the edge 2300ft reel would be about 63 minutes... A show like that would have been sent most likely on 2x1600ft reels. 30 minute shows were almost always sent on single 1200ft reels. In 25 years of collecting and tens of thousands of prints I've handled, I've never once seen a half hour show that was cut into multiple reels.
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