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Post by George D on Sept 17, 2012 2:06:21 GMT
I can kind of understand the ignorance when they thought the stuff was unsaleable in 1970s. However after the archives was formed and it was documented the value and the saleability in the late 1970s, the fact that they still had the policy of destroying missing dr who episodes into the early 1990s is abominable.
Its amazing that we have the amount we have considering the lack of cordination and concern and Im now wondering if there were any missing hartnells and troughtons returned late 70s and 80s that never got saved from the skip. (shakes head in disbelief)
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Post by John Andersen on Sept 17, 2012 4:17:43 GMT
I can kind of understand the ignorance when they thought the stuff was unsaleable in 1970s. However after the archives was formed and it was documented the value and the saleability in the late 1970s, the fact that they still had the policy of destroying missing dr who episodes into the early 1990s is abominable. Its amazing that we have the amount we have considering the lack of cordination and concern and Im now wondering if there were any missing hartnells and troughtons returned late 70s and 80s that never got saved from the skip. (shakes head in disbelief) What the hell was going on at the BBC? They had an archive to store BBC programs and people were still throwing things away from overseas sales without checking to see if things were missing? How ironic that we have episode hunters out there dedicating their time and energy looking for lost material out there, but BBC employees were still throwing things away? That would be like Paul Vanezis trying to bail out a sinking boat with a pot and you have other people on board drilling holes in the bottom of the boat to let in more water!
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Post by Jon Preddle on Sept 17, 2012 5:52:03 GMT
From the A + B notation on some of the labels, it looks like the episodes were at some time split in half, with reach half on its own reel, and inits own can. I've had a little ponder on this and I think I may have cracked what the alpha-numberic codes mean. The lowest is 2B and the highest 16D. (It's a "D" rather than "B" for reasons I'll get to.) Now, let's assume these five cans are part of a consignment of 18 episodes (three 6-parters). Going by the A+B notations on all the labels, each half hour episode has been split into an A reel and a B reel, with each placed into its own can. The label is marked accordingly, to indicate whether it's A or B, and/or 1 of 1 or 2 of 2. In the case of these five, all bar Ice Warriors part 4 is the can that held the B reel. Did A+B of Ice Warriors 4 fit inside the same (thicker?) can? The handwriting on the labels is probably that of BBC Enterprises staff, so let's assume the A + B reels were dispatched in that manner from source, rather than something the broadcaster did themselves. So, for those 18 eps, there were at least 35 cans. The cans were subsequently numbered 1-18, with a corresponding letter to indicate if it's A or B. The numbering however isn't in strict numerical sequence based on story title and episode number, so the four eps of Ice Warriors are 2, 15, 11 and 14, rather than 2,4,5,6... (This numbering might be purely random, but if there *is* a purpose behind why the numbers allocated aren't in sequence, I can't work it out!) The numbering is different to the writing on the labels, so let's assume this is the broadcaster's mark. Because there is also an extra print of Ice Warriors 5 (the label says "2 prints"), the four halves are coded A,B,C,D. This can therefore once held at least the first half of the second print (of four reels in total), so it's 11C. And because each half of Fury from the Deep 6 had itself been cut in half, but spliced back together at source, the BBC (viz their remark "join in both reels)" the eps were split in half again by the broadcaster (to insert ad breaks?), and the now four parts labelled A,B,C,D. This can therefore held the second half of the second reel (of four reels in total ), so it's 16D. For broadcast purposes, the separate reels of each ep were spliced together, and afterwards the now complete episode placed inside one of the cans that once housed just half of it. The films were then returned to the BBC in the cans with the labels as we see them now. (Presumably the extra print of Ice Warriors 4 was also returned.) Ep 1 of Ice Warriors was placed in error inside ep 2's can. If this 'theory' is correct, somewhere out there should be cans with labels marked, 1A, 1B, 2A, 3A, 3B, 4A, 4B, 5A, 5B, 6A, 6B, 7A, 7B, 8A, 8B, 9A, 9B, 10A, 10B, 11A, 11B, 11D, 12A, 12B, 13A, 13B, 14A, 16A, 16B, 16C....
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Post by Jon Preddle on Sept 17, 2012 6:26:45 GMT
Only four countries aired both stories.
I think we can safely rule out these being from Australia and Hong Kong (where the serials were sold in separate batches months apart), whereas the sales to Singapore and Gibraltar were part of the same batch of stories. The uniformity of the handwriting and marks indicate these were "catalogued" at the same time, rather than months apart.
So - maybe Singapore or Gibraltar...
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Post by Richard Molesworth on Sept 17, 2012 9:06:52 GMT
From the A + B notation on some of the labels, it looks like the episodes were at some time split in half, with reach half on its own reel, and inits own can. I've had a little ponder on this and I think I may have cracked what the alpha-numberic codes mean. The lowest is 2B and the highest 16D. (It's a "D" rather than "B" for reasons I'll get to.) Now, let's assume these five cans are part of a consignment of 18 episodes (three 6-parters). Going by the A+B notations on all the labels, each half hour episode has been split into an A reel and a B reel, with each placed into its own can. The label is marked accordingly, to indicate whether it's A or B, and/or 1 of 1 or 2 of 2. In the case of these five, all bar Ice Warriors part 4 is the can that held the B reel. Did A+B of Ice Warriors 4 fit inside the same (thicker?) can? The handwriting on the labels is probably that of BBC Enterprises staff, so let's assume the A + B reels were dispatched in that manner from source, rather than something the broadcaster did themselves. So, for those 18 eps, there were at least 35 cans. The cans were subsequently numbered 1-18, with a corresponding letter to indicate if it's A or B. The numbering however isn't in strict numerical sequence based on story title and episode number, so the four eps of Ice Warriors are 2, 15, 11 and 14, rather than 2,4,5,6... (This numbering might be purely random, but if there *is* a purpose behind why the numbers allocated aren't in sequence, I can't work it out!) The numbering is different to the writing on the labels, so let's assume this is the broadcaster's mark. Because there is also an extra print of Ice Warriors 5 (the label says "2 prints"), the four halves are coded A,B,C,D. This can therefore once held at least the first half of the second print (of four reels in total), so it's 11C. And because each half of Fury from the Deep 6 had itself been cut in half, but spliced back together at source, the BBC (viz their remark "join in both reels)" the eps were split in half again by the broadcaster (to insert ad breaks?), and the now four parts labelled A,B,C,D. This can therefore held the second half of the second reel (of four reels in total ), so it's 16D. For broadcast purposes, the separate reels of each ep were spliced together, and afterwards the now complete episode placed inside one of the cans that once housed just half of it. The films were then returned to the BBC in the cans with the labels as we see them now. (Presumably the extra print of Ice Warriors 4 was also returned.) Ep 1 of Ice Warriors was placed in error inside ep 2's can. If this 'theory' is correct, somewhere out there should be cans with labels marked, 1A, 1B, 2A, 3A, 3B, 4A, 4B, 5A, 5B, 6A, 6B, 7A, 7B, 8A, 8B, 9A, 9B, 10A, 10B, 11A, 11B, 11D, 12A, 12B, 13A, 13B, 14A, 16A, 16B, 16C.... Hi Jon, By gum, I think you've cracked it. However, to my eyes, the 'Fury' tin looks to have the notation 16A. Or at least one of the handwritten notations does, the one on the right. The left hand one could either be 16A, 16B or 16D if looked at in isolation, but in context with the right-hand notation, makes me go with 16A. Which simplifies things a little (I can't imagine a station would screen a 25-minute episode of 'Who' with 3 advert breaks in the 60s / 70s). So it would look like these episodes were returned sales prints from either Singapore or Gibralter, which got sent back to Villiers House. I wonder if 'The Web of Fear' Part 1 film found at Villiers House in the late 70s had similar markings on? Regards, Richard
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Post by dennywilson on Sept 17, 2012 9:35:48 GMT
I also spoke to one BBC Enterprises employee who would routinely send Sue Malden material anonymously, having been asked to destroy the films by his bosses. When I asked Sue if this had happened, she confirmed it but never knew who the person was. What years were this? Enterprises was still destroying material before checking with the archive?
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Post by Jon Preddle on Sept 17, 2012 10:22:44 GMT
However, to my eyes, the 'Fury' tin looks to have the notation 16A. Or at least one of the handwritten notations does, the one on the right. The left hand one could either be 16A, 16B or 16D if looked at in isolation, but in context with the right-hand notation, makes me go with 16A. Hmmm. But the codes on Ice Warriors Four is a definite "A". If 16 was also an "A "why doesn't it look like that other one? The time slot for this run of eps in Gibraltar (tx in 1973) was a half hour, whereas, for Singapore (tx in 1970) it's only 25 mins. If I had to choose, I'd say these films came back from Gibraltar. The films were supplied from BBC London (very close), pre-cut to allow for ad breaks (maybe GBC requested the BBC to cut at suitable junctures). If these prints were ex-Singapore, and sold through BBC Sydney, I don't think the labels would be handwritten that way. I've seen lots of NZBC BBC labels, and in most cases they have been typed rather than hand-written (the Moonbase ep 3 for instance). So, my gut feeling here is, these *could* be from Gibraltar. Of course, there is always the possibility that these eps never actually left Enterprises, and were just a spare set that were always sitting on the shelf, and were never broadcast...
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Post by Greg H on Sept 17, 2012 12:52:44 GMT
What years were this? Enterprises was still destroying material before checking with the archive? I can't really point you to a specific source on this matter, but that is exactly what I have heard on a few occasions. Who knows what may have travelled half way around the world to arrive back at the BBC and then to be quietly snuffed out............. Quite a shame really. Perhaps one of our members can shed a little more light on this?
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Post by Steven Sigel on Sept 17, 2012 14:46:18 GMT
@jon To test your theory, we'd need to know if the prints of Ice Warriors had a physical splice in them where they were cut apart and rejoined - because they would have been supplied by the BBC as a single episode without any splices. My prints therefore should have a printed in splices - If I can find the time, I'll take a look.
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Post by John Andersen on Sept 17, 2012 18:34:33 GMT
What years were this? Enterprises was still destroying material before checking with the archive? I can't really point you to a specific source on this matter, but that is exactly what I have heard on a few occasions. Who knows what may have travelled half way around the world to arrive back at the BBC and then to be quietly snuffed out............. Quite a shame really. Perhaps one of our members can shed a little more light on this? I am not sure I want to know the truth about that, Greg. Sierra Leone was bad, but to possibly have missing episodes or stories returned to the BBC after the archive was formed only to have them destroyed all over again would be a real kick in the balls.
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Post by Ash Stewart on Sept 17, 2012 19:37:25 GMT
What years were this? Enterprises was still destroying material before checking with the archive? I can't really point you to a specific source on this matter, but that is exactly what I have heard on a few occasions. Who knows what may have travelled half way around the world to arrive back at the BBC and then to be quietly snuffed out............. Quite a shame really. Perhaps one of our members can shed a little more light on this? Late 1981/early 1982 saw the destruction of a batch of recently returned Dr Who episodes. Source; Wiped, page 209.
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Post by Greg H on Sept 17, 2012 20:02:46 GMT
Such a shame. I suppose this is where I should make a wistful comment about wishing I had a time machine :/
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Post by Jon Preddle on Sept 17, 2012 21:32:14 GMT
Looking at it again. I think the Fury 6 notation might be 16B (not D) after all, as that would match the red circled B and the 2 of 2 mark already on the label. But each reel still had a "join" in it, per the remark.
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Post by George D on Sept 17, 2012 22:02:26 GMT
Has anyone thought of asking someone who worked at enterprises in the 1970s what the codes mean?
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Post by George D on Sept 17, 2012 22:04:31 GMT
Unfortunately it wouldnt have done much good. Ian Levine was there in the 1970s fighting as only Ian could for the shows to be saved.. Sadly, only so much could be done when dealing with ignorance. Im curious if we know what was in this 1981/82 lot mentioned. Such a shame. I suppose this is where I should make a wistful comment about wishing I had a time machine :/
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