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Post by Richard Tipple on Sept 25, 2012 14:33:25 GMT
In response to an earlier query, yes, I was tipped off by Dave Wood about this advert. The films probably weren't copies of the others that turned up; I doubt whether they were the same prints. No, whoever purchased them drove a VERY nice car, paid cash and was in his 50's. In my view, an obvious long term collector. Sounds like the sort who might want something unique. Sounds like he knows exactly what he has..
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Post by Dave Wood on Sept 25, 2012 19:22:05 GMT
We're so incredibly lucky to have BBC insiders like Paul, who will happily give up their free time to investigate these leads, no matter how tenuous and crazy they might first seem. I knew I was out of my depth when I found the advert and I was so very grateful to be able to hand the information over to an industry professional and to know that it would be followed up. (It was a very different experience when I tried to find a contact at the BFI to arrange the recovery of The Avengers episode - and that was frustrating, as through email discussions with the UCLA I knew they still had the physical print, but it took a couple of days of calls to various BFI/NFT offices before I was able to get past the various jobsworth receptionists and through to someone with a genuine interest in film preservation).
I know it must be incredibly frustrating and irritating at times Paul, but I'm sure we're all very thankful for the time that you spend on these projects, and for your taking the time and trouble to post feedback on these forums, even when it's a negative response or dead end.
Very best wishes to you,
Dave (Wood)
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Post by dennywilson on Sept 25, 2012 20:48:00 GMT
So, can we now assume that all the broadcasters (or their successors) have been completely checked and no longer have any Dr.Who (or other BBC Material)?
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Sept 25, 2012 21:02:04 GMT
I know it must be incredibly frustrating and irritating at times Paul, but I'm sure we're all very thankful for the time that you spend on these projects, and for your taking the time and trouble to post feedback on these forums, even when it's a negative response or dead end. Hi David, Thanks so much. I enjoy it to be honest and I can usually persuade people to give back or loan a film where others have failed. I'm afraid I'm no longer a genuine BBC insider. They made me redundant in January; I'm currently working on an ITV series but will be back at the BBC as a freelance in November. However, I am still an advisor and 'hunter of lost tv' and have a direct line to both the BBC archive and the BFi, as well as good contacts within the film collecting community, so I'm still used as a go between. Regards, Paul
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Sept 25, 2012 21:03:41 GMT
So, can we now assume that all the broadcasters (or their successors) have been completely checked and no longer have any Dr.Who (or other BBC Material)? No. There are still several leads that are being chased up and some investigations being undertaken to ensure past assurances were accurate. Regards, Paul
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Post by dennywilson on Sept 25, 2012 22:33:06 GMT
So, can we now assume that all the broadcasters (or their successors) have been completely checked and no longer have any Dr.Who (or other BBC Material)? No. There are still several leads that are being chased up and some investigations being undertaken to ensure past assurances were accurate. Regards, Paul I didn't know that - I thought you lads had closed the door on the international hunt months ago. So is the search limited to B&W episodes, or is it expanded to check the countries who got the (missing) color Pertwee episodes (PAL and NTSC) being checked as well?
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Sept 25, 2012 23:26:43 GMT
Dotting i's really.
The only reason why we haven't provided exact details of what information we found is because there are still one or two loose ends.
I don't think we'll ever be able to say with certainty that there is nothing overseas, but we have ruled out most overseas broadcasters as still retaining DW.
Paul
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Post by George D on Sept 26, 2012 2:00:05 GMT
I very much appreciate the thoroughness that Paul is putting into his research and patiently addressing all our questions. I know it takes a lot of his time, and I thought it would be appropriate to let him know we notice and appreciate the vast amount of time he has dedicated to this noble task. This topic has been extremely informational and helped me have greater insight onto the realities of the fate of the series.
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Post by Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy on Sept 26, 2012 2:18:11 GMT
Paul: Wouldn't know if you'd be able to answer this. But did anyone ever take Joseph Furst's Outer Mongolia comment ... crazy as it is ... seriously enough to make a quick check with MNB in Ulaanbaatar?
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Post by Alex Dering on Sept 26, 2012 2:36:15 GMT
So, what sort of employee would be most likely to "root through the trash" for episodes? I'd say a younger male employee would be the most likely. So, someone 25-to-30 years old when these episodes were being trashed would quite possibly still be alive today. Quite possibly there were several of "them."
I suppose the BBC has thought of simply asking the surviving people from that time (even if they aren't BBC employees anymore) for leads? Sort of a UCOS thing from "New Tricks"? If some of the employees were taking the tapes, it was probably common enough knowledge at the time.
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Post by craigrothwell on Sept 26, 2012 3:35:52 GMT
It's funny you should say that. I don't post often but I've wondered if anyone has sent a friendly letter to ex-BBC staff from those times asking for leads.
That would surely bring in some interesting tales of film going missing at least... and maybe some valuable information?
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Post by Richard Bignell on Sept 26, 2012 7:03:53 GMT
Paul: Wouldn't know if you'd be able to answer this. But did anyone ever take Joseph Furst's Outer Mongolia comment ... crazy as it is ... seriously enough to make a quick check with MNB in Ulaanbaatar? No. Referring to "Outer Mongolia" has always just been a turn of phrase to mean somewhere vague and far away - and besides, the programme was never sold to Mongolia (who didn't have television service for many years anyway).
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Post by Ash Stewart on Sept 26, 2012 7:16:11 GMT
I think the most salient point was Furst's mention that he was receiving royalties for TUM until the 80s. Broadwcast notes that the last known screening of TUM was Zambia in May 1970. If Furst's recollection of the dates is correct, then from what screenings was he receiving royalties?
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Sept 26, 2012 8:57:04 GMT
Paul: Wouldn't know if you'd be able to answer this. But did anyone ever take Joseph Furst's Outer Mongolia comment ... crazy as it is ... seriously enough to make a quick check with MNB in Ulaanbaatar? Hi Mark, A couple of points about his comments. Firstly, there is no paperwork trail that leads back to Mongolia. What we have discovered is that the clearance history sheets are spot on when it comes to sales to specific countries and Outer Mongolia isn't on the list. Secondly, when I first looked at Mongolia, it didn't have the hallmarks of a country about to embrace western ideals, nor was it a commonwealth country. The station only started broadcasting in 1967 and didn't show any pre-recorded programmes as all it had was a couple of cameras, a switcher and a transmitter. When it finally got the ability to show film in 1971, there was little if any western content on display. I toyed with the idea that copies were sent there by mistake by another broadcaster, or sent with a batch of officially purchased film, but then Joseph Furst wouldn't have had a payment from an unauthorised broadcast so I ruled it out. I decided on the balance of probabilities that he used the name Outer Mongolia as a catch all for the distant territories the shows were being sold to, for which he was still getting payment. It's also possible that in his advancing years, a distant memory seemed more relevant than something the day before. When you get older things that happened years ago feel more recent. I've only recently understood this myself when interviewing people for the DVD's or producing DVD commentaries. Furst would have been getting payments for Uganda, New Zealand, Zambia, Australia, Singapore and Hong Kong. It would be easy for him to get confused and not quite recall which country he was getting payments for and when. Paul
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Post by Richard Bignell on Sept 26, 2012 8:58:12 GMT
If Furst's recollection of the dates is correct, then from what screenings was he receiving royalties? Bear in mind that the DWAS had shown the episode of The Underwater Menace at the 1982 Interface II event, so he would have got a few pennies from that. The way the payments system worked, that residual may not have worked its way through the system for quite some time (even years) before he got the cheque. If a clip of the episode had been used for any reason during those years, he would have also got paid for it.
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