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Post by Paul Vanezis on Sept 24, 2012 16:59:01 GMT
So our best hope really is that the BBC was staffed by a bunch of tea leaves in the mid-70s! Material got out several ways back then, but I know of two from first hand accounts. Firstly, junked film was left on the loading bay at Villiers House. It was either taken off cores and then unravelled into plastic bin bags, or it was taken away by the skip guys. On quite a few occasions, people took film home. One of the skip companies bosses (who used to drive the truck) was a fan of some of the programmes he was throwing away and kept back some of the films, including some episodes of 'Dad's Army'. He kept these until his death in the late 1990's, after which his widow put them up for sale. I missed them by a few days; they were bought for cash and disappeared into a film collection somewhere. Other material was taken from Ealing; we know of the Francis Watson films, but many other BBC shows went walkies from there as well. This is well documented and the very fact that so many old BBC shows turn up proves it happened. There are only four places BBC shows could come from, ex Employees who took stuff home (legitimately or not), organisations (such as colleges or schools) who purchased programmes, overseas broadcasters or the BBC itself (and by that I also include Enterprises). Most will be prints from overseas taken home by employees. Paul
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Post by Joshua Watson on Sept 24, 2012 17:12:50 GMT
I'm guessing it's not known how many film cans were taken, so the rest of the missing episodes could be out there or none all depending when employees took some with them??
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Post by Ash Stewart on Sept 24, 2012 17:36:24 GMT
One of the skip companies bosses (who used to drive the truck) was a fan of some of the programmes he was throwing away and kept back some of the films, including some episodes of 'Dad's Army'. He kept these until his death in the late 1990's, after which his widow put them up for sale. I missed them by a few days; they were bought for cash and disappeared into a film collection somewhere. Is this the same skip company boss mentioned in Dave Wood's article on the Dr Who Gateway? (I'd guess it probably is... can't imagine there being too skip company bosses saving films!) archive.whoniversity.co.uk/gateway/doctorwhoepisodehunter.html
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Post by Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy on Sept 24, 2012 19:02:46 GMT
But there is no point in worrying about the why's and wherefores now; it won't help us find anything. Material did get out into the wider world and for each ep of Dr. Who there were ten or twenty other things. One of the reasons we only have odd episodes from collectors and not complete stories is because material was left on piles in no particular order. Eps 2 & 3 of Fury from the Deep (for example) would have been chucked out the day before. Someone spots episode 1 on a pile with episode 3 of the Highlanders and picks up those two because why the hell not. There are no other DW's in the pile. The next day he comes back and still no DW, but he grabs an episode of 'The Likely lads. He's not in work the next day, so misses all seven episodes of 'Evil' being chucked into a skip...except episode 2 is left behind along with 'Faceless Ones' 3. Some other chancer grabs those. That is how it happened I'm sure. Paul So that would explain why G4-3 was found with UM-2, but without the other episodes from the serials. I wonder if the person Terry Burnett got the episodes from was the same individual who picked them up from BBC ... or if the episodes had been jumping around collectors for a bit before then. Their condition might be evident of several owners. Or maybe they were taken off their cores and someone picked them back up and rewound them. Well, nothing else to do but keep looking. I agree with the previous sentiment. Thank you Paul for giving us a lot of this information. It's enlightening and very interesting.
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Post by Jon Preddle on Sept 24, 2012 20:16:16 GMT
Actually, my current theory is that 'The Ice Warriors' prints were indeed cutting copies to enable Ents to cut the negs and therefore create clean prints free of VT faults. The 2B, 11C, 16B markings on the labels might be locator points to indicate where the intended cuts were - i.e. 11 feet, frame C... Grasping at straws! ;-)
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Post by George D on Sept 24, 2012 20:58:55 GMT
As I read this, it reminds me the more we know, the more we realize we dont know. Sadly, I think we realize that every archive is now accounted for. The main area of interest appears to be "out of the skip" episodes. If its true that episodes recovered from collectors are from this primarily batch returned from down under, then we can make a few hypothesizes. 1. In theory of most of the season 3, 4, and 5 episodes it is possible, although unlikely, that any of them could have survived. 2. There is an equal statistic for all. (since the odds are statistically equal of being pulled from the skip) 3. The odds of duplicate prints being found become less because there is only one of each in this batch. 4. Although the number of prints made of the dalek stories are least, the odds are the same or higher as i think someone would more likely pull as episode with the word daleks from the skip than they would highlanders. Considering that these prints were left for anyone to help them self makes me wonder if more could have saved. For example, if I worked there, being a collector/ film buff, I might have had a field day garbage picking. I might not have singled dr who out, but if it wouldn't put my job in jeopardy and nobody cared, I would have built myself a nice little (or large film collection. Also, if i was a tv film collector/dealer in the uk, i might have also tried to build a reputation with some employees to help me help the beeb get rid of their garbage Im not saying its likely.. just saying we cant ascertain its not impossible.and even if they were taken from the skip, doesn't mean the person is still alive or that they still exist today. I think we have a decent theory on the Ice Warriors episodes. Jon, im wondering if the code represents storage location, but that's just a guess. Someone in the cutting room dept would know definitely what the code means. My question still remains when would the fury can have been emptied (during the years in storage or when it was returned) and if someone really did replace it with something else, would they have saved it. The other question I have is if anyone knows what happened to the skip company owner who had an attic full of films. Do we have any new information to give us closure on this?
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Post by Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy on Sept 24, 2012 21:30:05 GMT
Actually, my current theory is that 'The Ice Warriors' prints were indeed cutting copies to enable Ents to cut the negs and therefore create clean prints free of VT faults. The 2B, 11C, 16B markings on the labels might be locator points to indicate where the intended cuts were - i.e. 11 feet, frame C... Grasping at straws! ;-) I had thought that one as well. Also thought maybe it was an indication as to when to broadcast it. Film 2 of Block B or something ...
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Post by Steven Sigel on Sept 24, 2012 21:48:36 GMT
Actually, my current theory is that 'The Ice Warriors' prints were indeed cutting copies to enable Ents to cut the negs and therefore create clean prints free of VT faults. The 2B, 11C, 16B markings on the labels might be locator points to indicate where the intended cuts were - i.e. 11 feet, frame C... Grasping at straws! ;-) I've never heard of footage counts being done that way. Not to mention the fact that 2,11,and 16 feet are all within the first 9.5 seconds of the film...
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Post by Jon Preddle on Sept 24, 2012 22:23:48 GMT
The 2B, 11C, 16B markings on the labels might be locator points to indicate where the intended cuts were - i.e. 11 feet, frame C... Grasping at straws! ;-) I've never heard of footage counts being done that way. Not to mention the fact that 2,11,and 16 feet are all within the first 9.5 seconds of the film... True! As I said, straws!
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Post by Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy on Sept 25, 2012 0:19:14 GMT
I've never heard of footage counts being done that way. Not to mention the fact that 2,11,and 16 feet are all within the first 9.5 seconds of the film... True! As I said, straws! Maybe they're a secret geographical code to the location of the missing Fury from the Deep episode. A tantalizing set of Longitude and Latitude numbers that'll lead us to one of the most sought after serials in this fandom!
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Post by Jon Preddle on Sept 25, 2012 1:56:33 GMT
Paul: As for the other serials, has there been any hints or clues to them possibly existing? I know that with the Return of The Lion and the eBay sighting of Land of Fear that Crusades and Reign of Terror might have a glimmer of hope. But has there been anything to suggest that Marco Polo, Massacre, Celestial Toymaker, Savages, Highlanders, Macra, Fury, or Wheel might be bouncing about in private hands? Many Australian prints were destroyed - and if this posting from 2003 is to be believed, he's the one who did it! - missingepisodes.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=who&thread=3389&page=1
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Sept 25, 2012 8:07:14 GMT
Paul: As for the other serials, has there been any hints or clues to them possibly existing? I know that with the Return of The Lion and the eBay sighting of Land of Fear that Crusades and Reign of Terror might have a glimmer of hope. But has there been anything to suggest that Marco Polo, Massacre, Celestial Toymaker, Savages, Highlanders, Macra, Fury, or Wheel might be bouncing about in private hands? Many Australian prints were destroyed - and if this posting from 2003 is to be believed, he's the one who did it! - missingepisodes.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=who&thread=3389&page=1Yes...it was him. Paul
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Sept 25, 2012 10:59:34 GMT
But if there was in most cases only one Australian print per episode (as established by Jon Preddle) how could a substantial bulk of episodes have been returned to the UK in 1975 and destroyed by an ABC employee as well? Not all DW's would have been returned. We know that some were sent to New Zealand, others were destroyed locally. Some episodes were kept for a little longer before destruction. Two episodes were saved by being removed by an ABC employee from a skip at the ABC in the early 1970's. He may not have destroyed hundreds of Dr. Who, possibly other shows at the same time. Paul
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Sept 25, 2012 14:10:20 GMT
Paul, Thank you for the above reply. Re the below post by yourself: "One of the skip companies bosses (who used to drive the truck) was a fan of some of the programmes he was throwing away and kept back some of the films, including some episodes of 'Dad's Army'. He kept these until his death in the late 1990's, after which his widow put them up for sale. I missed them by a few days; they were bought for cash and disappeared into a film collection somewhere". Are you referring to Operation Kilt and The Battle for Godfrey's Cottage or some/all of the missing three Dad's Army episodes? In response to an earlier query, yes, I was tipped off by Dave Wood about this advert. The films probably weren't copies of the others that turned up; I doubt whether they were the same prints. No, whoever purchased them drove a VERY nice car, paid cash and was in his 50's. In my view, an obvious long term collector. Paul
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Post by John Wall on Sept 25, 2012 14:25:21 GMT
In response to an earlier query, yes, I was tipped off by Dave Wood about this advert. The films probably weren't copies of the others that turned up; I doubt whether they were the same prints. No, whoever purchased them drove a VERY nice car, paid cash and was in his 50's. In my view, an obvious long term collector. Sounds like the sort who might want something unique.
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