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Post by Richard Tipple on Sept 24, 2012 10:38:35 GMT
The fact Australia had to make copies of their prints for their different territories is promising... Er, no. That's idea's been dismissed. There were never copies made for Australian regional screenings. Only one print of each episode was ever used and cycled. (The odd exceptions to that was when a print went missing in transit or was damaged and thus a replacement was sourced, usually from London.) Er, thank you for clarifying/'dismissing' - I appreciate it. I'll try to keep up at the back. Do you have answers to the Gore Hill query at all? EDIT: Looks like ABC moved out in 2003. I wonder if they've fully moved/catalogued what was in there? I would imagine they have but in fear of getting shot down I'll let those most qualified pass comment, should they so desire.
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Sept 24, 2012 11:38:52 GMT
Yes.
Here goes. The following were sent back on June 4th 1975 (with thanks to Damian Shanahan for the research):
The Space Museum The Chase The Time Meddler Galaxy Four The Myth Makers The Ark The Smugglers The Tenth Planet The Power of the Daleks The Underwater Menace The Moonbase The Faceless Ones The Evil of the Daleks The Tomb of the Cybermen The Abominable Snowmen The Ice Warriors The Enemy of the World The Web of Fear The Dominators The Mind Robber The Invasion The Seeds of Death The Space Pirates The War Games
The Krotons was returned in June 1976.
It's highly likely that many of the episodes which found their way back into the main archive were part of this batch of returned films.
Paul
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Post by Richard Tipple on Sept 24, 2012 12:03:16 GMT
It's highly likely that many of the episodes which found their way back into the main archive were part of this batch of returned films. Very interesting, thank you. I suppose we have to work off the theory that if a couple of these cans ended up in the hands of private collectors, hopefully so did a few more!
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Sept 24, 2012 12:30:02 GMT
It's highly likely that many of the episodes which found their way back into the main archive were part of this batch of returned films. Very interesting, thank you. I suppose we have to work off the theory that if a couple of these cans ended up in the hands of private collectors, hopefully so did a few more! I think the number would be very low... Don't forget, we know that thousands of BBC cans were thrown out and most were successfully destroyed. We're looking at a tiny window of opportunity as well. That batch of film may have got back to Villiers House as late as November 1975. Yesterday I saw 4 cans of film which were sent back to Enterprises around August 1977 and those films did get back to the film library and into the hands of Sue Malden. We're looking at an 18 month window! Paul
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Post by George D on Sept 24, 2012 13:24:23 GMT
Sigh. If Ian was there a year earlier, or they were returned a year or two later, they might have all made the archives.
While some may say we're lucky to have as much as we have, however with all the effort as early as the 1970s into finding missing Dr Who we may not have been that lucky.
What is the general thoughts about the skips and security? With all those reels at one time could someone have been able to fill up their car with them? How many could a person realistically run with? How many people could have had opportunity to 'help themself' and how long would a skip sit around for people to enjoy the free film skip.
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Post by Richard Tipple on Sept 24, 2012 13:35:14 GMT
Sigh. If Ian was there a year earlier, or they were returned a year or two later, they might have all made the archives. While some may say we're lucky to have as much as we have, however with all the effort as early as the 1970s into finding missing Dr Who we may not have been that lucky. What is the general thoughts about the skips and security? With all those reels at one time could someone have been able to fill up their car with them? How many could a person realistically run with? How many people could have had opportunity to 'help themself' and how long would a skip sit around for people to enjoy the free film skip. I'd guess it's impossible to answer to that with any degree of accuracy. As I see it, we have to hope a few of those prints went walkies and will turn up again. It looks as though the foreign broadcasters route has run its course, so that's all we've got left to hope for.. bar a miracle, it's fair enough to assume there will always be twenty-seven incomplete Doctor Who serials. However, I'm still going to search, and ask, and check. Just encase a little bit of that early black and white magic is still out there. Double page spread in a few foreign newspapers anyone? For a few hundred quid we could ask around Sierra Leone..
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Post by Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy on Sept 24, 2012 13:52:20 GMT
Paul:
As for the other serials, has there been any hints or clues to them possibly existing? I know that with the Return of The Lion and the eBay sighting of Land of Fear that Crusades and Reign of Terror might have a glimmer of hope. But has there been anything to suggest that Marco Polo, Massacre, Celestial Toymaker, Savages, Highlanders, Macra, Fury, or Wheel might be bouncing about in private hands?
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Sept 24, 2012 14:00:09 GMT
Paul: As for the other serials, has there been any hints or clues to them possibly existing? I know that with the Return of The Lion and the eBay sighting of Land of Fear that Crusades and Reign of Terror might have a glimmer of hope. But has there been anything to suggest that Marco Polo, Massacre, Celestial Toymaker, Savages, Highlanders, Macra, Fury, or Wheel might be bouncing about in private hands? In my view, the most likely episodes to turn up are the two missing 'Reign of Terror' episodes, for two reasons. Firstly, we've had stored field recordings of eps 3 & 6 back in the past meaning a full set of stored field recordings probably were made and survived for some time after. Secondly, we had the EBay listing for what was an original print of a suppressed field recording of part 1, indicating there was at least a further set of eps of the early 1964 recordings. These are obviously all ex sales prints so the only source was Enterprises in the early to mid 1970's. I'm very surprised we don't have at least 1 episode of Marco Polo, but as far as I'm aware there are no believable rumours of any of those stories floating around. Regarding season 3, those were not sold widely and when they were, the prints were shared across territories, so I doubt whether we'll see any of those back unless they come via a collector who has one or more of the Australian returns. There must be more episodes out there with collectors, possibly another 10 or so, but who knows if they'll all be missing ones, if any. Paul
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Post by Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy on Sept 24, 2012 14:29:14 GMT
Paul: The four Troughtons I listed seem so bleak to me. Especially Macra and Highlanders. Aren't those two confirmed junked by both Australia AND New Zealand?
One question, and I hope you can answer because it's been rattling in my brain, I know Ice Warriors was a "Viewing Print" for the sale of Doctor Who. Would you know what other serials were "Viewing Prints"?
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Sept 24, 2012 14:34:52 GMT
Paul: The four Troughtons I listed seem so bleak to me. Especially Macra and Highlanders. Aren't those two confirmed junked by both Australia AND New Zealand? One question, and I hope you can answer because it's been rattling in my brain, I know Ice Warriors was a "Viewing Print" for the sale of Doctor Who. Would you know what other serials were "Viewing Prints"? Actually, my current theory is that 'The Ice Warriors' prints were indeed cutting copies to enable Ents to cut the negs and therefore create clean prints free of VT faults. The episode of The Romans that turned up last year was a viewing print, and quite dupey. We know that audition prints of serial OO were sent to Germany, but these most likely would have been returned and the labels would have "Audition Print" stamped on them. I've seen other Enterprises films with those markings. Paul
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Post by Alex Dering on Sept 24, 2012 14:47:05 GMT
"What is the general thoughts about the skips and security?"
I can't say with any certainty how security works at the BBC, but back in the late 1970s/early 1980s, security would have mainly been psychological, wouldn't it? This was well before scanners and electronic devices made pilfering difficult.
Someone is tasked with cutting the films up. What, really, is to stop him from simply taking all the Dr. Who films and sticking them in a box somewhere or in a desk drawer, and then sneaking them out one at a time. I get all the stuff about copyright and licensing agreements and such, but is it really that impossible that someone at the BBC simply handed the task off to an underling, saying, "Just destroy these. Here's the cutter. Throw them all in the bin over there." I've had plenty of bosses who would have even said it outright, "I need these destroyed. If you see a couple you want to keep as souvenirs, I didn't see a thing."
I still wonder if the BBC has made the effort -- quietly and politely -- to reach out to the actual people who would have been in a position to have helped themselves to the films and simply said, "We're not saying you stole them. We don't care if you did. But if you do have tapes, we are missing items from the archives. We're granting a full amnesty. If you find something, give it back, we'll make a copy, give you back the original, and all our thanks for having the good sense we lacked."
Also, various episodes are reported as confirmed junked by various places (Australia and New Zealand, for instance) far from the BBC. Same question as above. Has anyone at the BBC (again, politely) contacted those people? A film reaches the end of its trip, I'm handed the thing and told to destroy it. "You mean no one wants it?" "Well, it's served its purpose, and we aren't going to spend the money to mail it back, and we can't keep it here."
I wouldn't keep them all for myself, but I'd almost certainly keep a few. This was the late '70s. Home recordings didn't exist. A personal library of television films, though? Hard to believe someone wouldn't have been accumulating episodes, maybe even by the box load.
I mean, the information must exist. Who ACTUALLY destroyed the episodes as they came back? How "secure" was the procedure?
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Sept 24, 2012 15:23:03 GMT
"What is the general thoughts about the skips and security?"I mean, the information must exist. Who ACTUALLY destroyed the episodes as they came back? How "secure" was the procedure? Actually, just because you believe the information MUST exist, that doesn't mean it must, should or does. Material was routinely released and junked. The films would be left on the loading bay ready to be collected by the skip company, or to be de-cored and unravelled into black bin bags. People who were there at the time were often told that some films had been junked and if they wanted them they were down on the loading bay. This did happen and it was as ad hoc as that. So there was little or no security and material was thrown and as easily taken away. I don't think anyone would be actively looking for things being taken without permission. People walked in and out of there with film under their arms every day. But there is no point in worrying about the why's and wherefores now; it won't help us find anything. Material did get out into the wider world and for each ep of Dr. Who there were ten or twenty other things. One of the reasons we only have odd episodes from collectors and not complete stories is because material was left on piles in no particular order. Eps 2 & 3 of Fury from the Deep (for example) would have been chucked out the day before. Someone spots episode 1 on a pile with episode 3 of the Highlanders and picks up those two because why the hell not. There are no other DW's in the pile. The next day he comes back and still no DW, but he grabs an episode of 'The Likely lads. He's not in work the next day, so misses all seven episodes of 'Evil' being chucked into a skip...except episode 2 is left behind along with 'Faceless Ones' 3. Some other chancer grabs those. That is how it happened I'm sure. Paul
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Post by Joshua Watson on Sept 24, 2012 16:25:02 GMT
So the BBC could say episodes have been junked, but because they just left the cans outside any old Tom, Dick or Harry could have picked them up, taken them home and then sold them to a collector?
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Sept 24, 2012 16:31:29 GMT
So the BBC could say episodes have been junked, but because they just left the cans outside any old Tom, Dick or Harry could have picked them up, taken them home and then sold them to a collector? No. They would have to have signed in or be an employee. It was employees who took stuff away, not members of the public. Paul
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Post by Rob Moss on Sept 24, 2012 16:37:34 GMT
So our best hope really is that the BBC was staffed by a bunch of tea leaves in the mid-70s!
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