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Post by Paul Vanezis on Sept 14, 2012 17:31:34 GMT
And a question of my own: What are the origins of the surviving prints of The Underwater Menace 3 The Moonbase 2 The Ice Warriors 1,4,5,6 The Enemy of the World 3 The Invasion 2,3,5,6,7,8 Are they also from the Australia 1975 returns or are they viewing copies, duplicates or returned from another overseas broadcaster? Hmm. Interesting one this. In order, this is what is in my database: Underwater Menace 3 - Master Print + Fine Grain Dupe Neg (From the Master print) Ice Warriors - Prints found at BBC Enterprises in 1988. I'll post the can labels shortly. Moonbase 2 - Fine grain dupe neg and print. The BBC doesn't have the master print that the negative came from. Enemy of the World 3 - Original FR Neg and Sound Neg made on broadcast. Invasion - All fine grain dupe negs from prints, possibly NFA prints. Apart from episode 8 for which an original 625 print survives with a fine grain made from it. Paul |
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Post by Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy on Sept 14, 2012 18:00:25 GMT
I'm a bit confused as to why Australia would hold on to those five stories. Any particular reason to not send back the Highlanders or Macra Terror, but yet they do send back the two stories in between them?
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Sept 14, 2012 18:01:29 GMT
OK. Here are the can labels for the Doctor Who prints found at Villiers House in 1988...and another label...  |
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Post by Greg H on Sept 14, 2012 18:09:27 GMT
That 'other label' always gets me!! So near yet so far  Still, the ice warriors episodes are prime Troughton |
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Post by John Green on Sept 14, 2012 18:22:11 GMT
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Post by Greg H on Sept 14, 2012 18:26:49 GMT
John Wall's got a point: one extra pleasure of each 'find' is that it cuts the value of anything put away for a rainy day.On the other hand.......the value of missing material seems to be rising.An Alfie Bass TV episode fetched CASH a month or two ago.Alfie Bass! Indeed! But however this would be working from the assumption that anyone hanging on to a print knowingly would be doing so for purely financial reasons. Theres nowt so strange as folk and I would wager the gloating and feeling of secret power would be enough for some people. Difficult to fathom, but there it is! Some people really are wired differently to me! I have always shared my toys. |
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Post by John Andersen on Sept 14, 2012 19:02:00 GMT
Ok all, Rob Moss is right of course, that there is no guarantee that anything else could turn up from the batch of material that came back from Australia in 1975. Paul That was what I was thinking. Based on the find, it looks like it was pure luck that somebody grabbed a couple of prints and they somehow ended up in Mr. Burnett's collection. If he had several lost episodes from each season in his collection, or even several lost episodes from a few stories from one particular season, then I might be a little more optimistic. |
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Post by John Wall on Sept 14, 2012 19:09:52 GMT
John Wall's got a point: one extra pleasure of each 'find' is that it cuts the value of anything put away for a rainy day.On the other hand.......the value of missing material seems to be rising.An Alfie Bass TV episode fetched CASH a month or two ago.Alfie Bass! Indeed! But however this would be working from the assumption that anyone hanging on to a print knowingly would be doing so for purely financial reasons. Theres nowt so strange as folk and I would wager the gloating and feeling of secret power would be enough for some people. Difficult to fathom, but there it is! Some people really are wired differently to me! I have always shared my toys. The hypothesis presented was of a bunch holding on to missing episodes for financial reasons which many think is rubbish. However, keeping something in the knowledge (or hope) that it's unique cannot be ruled out. It's part of the premise behind "City of Death" ! |
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Post by Greg H on Sept 14, 2012 19:30:36 GMT
City of death did spring to mind whilst I was typing that tbh As a kid I recall those old trading cards for Marvel comics or something like that (its a bit hazy). I gave a chap from my school my doubles so he could complete his set, expecting him to do the same with his doubles, which after recieveing mine he flatly refused to do. By all accounts he grew up to be an abject @r$hole as well. Such are some people! I would agree though that if someone was hanging on to something missing from doctor who for financial reasons, the 50th aniversary would pretty much be the best opportunity they would ever have for making the largest profit possible. |
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Post by Jon Preddle on Sept 14, 2012 20:10:49 GMT
OK. Here are the can labels for the Doctor Who prints found at Villiers House in 1988...and another label... Nice. What do the notations 2B, 15A, 11C, 14B, 16B (or is it 16D) mean? Were they always on the cans or added later after they were found? |
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Post by John Green on Sept 14, 2012 23:26:28 GMT
I dunno.We've never yet,of course,unearthed one of those secret hoarders.Mind you,I've heard it plenty of times on TV that "The painting,which is worth x million pounds,will doubtless end up in the hands of a private collector; may even have been stolen to order".
I'm sure there can be a variety of reasons for people holding on to Whos,if they have them:
Fear of the consequences of return.
Unwillingness to share,etc.
Continual inability to work out the best (most financially rewarding?) way of unloading them.
Etc.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2012 8:48:21 GMT
Theres nowt so strange as folk and I would wager the gloating and feeling of secret power would be enough for some people. Difficult to fathom, but there it is! Some people really are wired differently to me! I have always shared my toys. Quite. It's a category of person that isn't fully acknowledged as existing in DW circles though. Maybe it's because we don't like to think that there are such self-centred people out there? Who knows. It isn't how I'd operate if I came into possession of a missing episode (I'd make sure the archives got a copy - and that's from someone who is not happy at all with the BBC over past wiping policy) but power and one-upmanship are enough for some and the making money / posterity angle just don't come into it, even if it means they are shooting themselves in the foot, so to speak. Not that I believe there are hoards of people out there greedily hanging on to Dr.Who episodes or anything but rdevelyn summed it up most succinctly when he said he thought we'd have to be very lucky indeed for all the existing missing episodes out there to have fallen into benevolent private hands. In fact, it would be bloody AMAZING by the law of averages if that were so. So I would assume - human nature being as it is - that a proportion of missing material will always remain out of reach for this reason. It's just an unfortunate fact of life but it needs to be accepted that not everyone is altruistic! |
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Post by davidstead on Sept 15, 2012 9:52:24 GMT
Just a quick note to add to Paul V's message. The labels are courtesy of me (I have the originals). I was on leave from the Archives, the day they arrived from Villiers, so made sure I was able to keep the labels, once they were recanned into metal cans for archival pruposes. The Fury label was on a small 35mm can (strangley enough!) and certainly by the time I got to check, the following day, the can was empty!
Having had film return from various BBC buildings to the archives at various times and the fact that on occasion, the label doesn't match the contents, I would have said that the Fury material was one such occasion.
Hope that helps,
Davidx
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Post by John Green on Sept 15, 2012 10:12:47 GMT
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Post by Greg H on Sept 15, 2012 14:51:45 GMT
It isn't how I'd operate if I came into possession of a missing episode (I'd make sure the archives got a copy - and that's from someone who is not happy at all with the BBC over past wiping policy) but power and one-upmanship are enough for some and the making money / posterity angle just don't come into it, even if it means they are shooting themselves in the foot, so to speak. Absolutely. I still facepalm at the BBC's lack of foresight about it's archival holdings and its a (largely targetless now in honesty) grudge I will never quite manage to drop I suspect. Even bearing that in mind I would never deprive people in general of the opportunity to watch something they would enjoy, and I do hold some sections of fandom in pretty low esteem........ |
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Still, the ice warriors episodes are prime Troughton