BBC Wiping Material as late as 1993?

[davidstead]

Hi Guys,

I'm glad my recollections have helped clarify the picture somewhat. The Archives (well the film library as it still was called then) was run as a little empire in it's own right until about the mid nineties, when the whole set up was altered there. It was starting to change just before I left, as many of the jobs were retitled (my job was retitled library services assistant) and of course we now have the written and sound archives combined into one big archive. I don't know what position in the hierarchy Adam Lee now holds, but I do agree, 'Archive Expert' is rather a misnomer (hope that's spelt right). Many names would suit better!

[Paul Varley]

In response to a previous post, yes it was when quite a few Swap Shops were junked, by my reckoning some of the 80s ones (the early episodes from the seventies I don't believe were recorded in the first place), and most of the original Finders Keepers were junked too.

If this was the attitude to children's programming in 1993, it's amazing we have anything of the 'Broom Cupboard' left (though granted this wasn't actually a programme)! To my knowledge the only known broadcast quality clips of that, in the 80s at least, are two small Andy Crane clips used in another show in 1988, and about a minute of Phillip Schofield from 1986, but even that isn't a true clip as it was in an episode of Blue Peter and not actual continuity!

[davidstead]

There is a possibility that the PasB (programme as Broadcast) recordings of the live 'What's Your Story' that Sylvester McCoy presented in the late 80's, may have some continuity. My off air VHS's certainly do.

[Colin Anderton]

Is this "broom cupboard" material particularly sought after? And are you referring to the bits of continuity about the time Philip Schofield first appeared (to my recollection) on TV? IIRC, did he appear with a puppet called "Gordon the Gopher"?

The point being that I haven't yet junked my videotapes from the 80s, although I've copied to digital everything I wanted to keep. I used to record Newsround a lot during Space Shuttle missions, as it was sometimes the only programme that regularly had progress reports during the flights.

I'm sure I would have quite a lot of this continuity from then.
Is it worth me looking among the tapes?

Colin.

[Ray Langstone (was saintsray)]

Colin - the word is YES. Transfer everything, make a note of what you've got including continuity, and then put a list on here (or link to it from here). If you can, anyway!

[Deleted]

Yes, we've probably all got a lot of '80s continuity on VHS tapes (I know I used to timer record a lot of things then - including quite a bit of children's drama - and always left a good 10 - 15 mins either side of what I wanted). So there is much around, even if not in broadcast standard (although there may well be some examples on U-Matic or SVHS too).

I know it's been said many times (although probably worth repeating), the important thing is to keep your originals after transferring to disc and not dispose of the tapes (I keep everything!), just in case of mishaps with DVDs at a future date.

[Paul Varley]

It's always important to keep your tape originals, like I have done when copying any of my continuity clips, whoich contain some treasured Tommy Boyd era CITV continuity (of which I believe there is nothing of in Broadcast Quality, and very little VHS in the archives itself).

There is indeed a lot of broom cupboard footage out there and on reference VHS tapes at the BBC. I think the only links they made a point of recording were where the presenter would interview someone, for example a 1991 clip of Andi Peters with Kylie Minogue exists at the BBC (they used it in a BBC children's programmes trailer), although most probably as a VHS.

[Pete Seaton]

Aug 30, 2011 8:26:16 GMT Ray Langstone (was saintsray) said:

Colin - the word is YES. Transfer everything, make a note of what you've got including continuity, and then put a list on here (or link to it from here). If you can, anyway!

have you seen how many tapes i have lol

[Colin Anderton]

"Colin - the word is YES. Transfer everything, make a note of what you've got including continuity, and then put a list on here (or link to it from here). If you can, anyway! "

OK, I'll have a look when I get the time. The problem is, although all the news reports I wanted were logged, I had no need to log the other stuff, so it would mean checking each tape individually.

By the way, if there's anything worth keeping from January 1 1990 onwards, I switched on that date to high-band S-VHS.

I'll take a look at one or two of the tapes in the next few days, and let you know what I come across.

And I agree with above comments about keeping original tapes, but it's a question of storage space; my collection runs to several hundred tapes.

Incidentally, in addition to saving valuable material to ordinary DVDs, I have also archived everything to data discs - with back-up copies! A wise precaution, I think.

Colin.

[Simon Smith]

Didn't the BBC only start actually archiving everything in the 90's, and then only for legal reasons? You'd think that people who worked in television would be people who actually have a passion for the business, but then you'd be dead wrong.

[Simon Smith]

Aug 29, 2011 9:43:10 GMT @laurencepiper said:

I see we have a new definition here now: not "junking" but "pruning back"! ;D

Yes, some programmes were lost completely. The difference between Nash and Lee is drastic. Nash was merely an enterprises employee disposing of what she saw as surplus sales material that may or may not have existed in duplication anyway. Lee was the actual archive selector - the top bod - who took it upon himself to dispose of stuff that he fully knew would be gone once he had made the decision to junk it. Not an enlightened decision for someone in his position to make.

I have always been rather sceptical of the "surplus sales material" explanation. People in Enterprises were surely aware that Engineering wiped the master videotapes as a matter of routine? Even if not, there surely would have been a point when someone in Enterprises signed off for tapes to be telerecorded for overseas sale, only to discover that the tapes had already been wiped? Then , there's the idea that prints had fully exhausted their sales potential. Obviously VCR and DVD were still years in the future, but in the 70's there were many countries that were just beginning to set up television networks. Every new developing country that was just entering the world of television was a potential customer. Whiole Enterprises were under no obligation to archive anything, and few people could have been aware of the massive sales potential that VCR and DVD would give, junking material even as more and more countries were launching television networks seems to be a very bad move. To say nothing of the then-emerging world of North American cable television. The issue of available storage space is however a serious consideration. However, we see that Enterprises DID retain many prints, just not exactly the ones that would have brought in the most money in future sales(by various means). the same is true of Engineering, wiping most of their videotapes, while holding onto obscure "art" plays.

Adam lee wiped some of the thousands(?) of interchangable children's shows. He never wiped Only Fools and Horses or Blackadder. Pamela Nash simply made a dreadful business decision, as we all do from time to time.

[Deleted]

I'm not sure if that was a defence or a criticism of Mr.Lee!

From what can be gathered, it seems that Enterprises (and the actual Archive too, or film library as it was called back in the '60s and early '70s) were a bit of a free-for-all with the left hand not knowing what the right was doing! That's probably the reason for the ultimate junking or many programmes and also the retention of many more which - on the face of it - seem random and unselected because that's how it was for ages and what now exists is basically everything which still existed at the point in 1978 when a cap was put on disposing of any more material (more recent recoveries not withstanding, of course).

The junking were not as clear cut as all that though, with many what you'd call "art plays" also being disposed of. I also believe that the '90s wipings stretched as far as things like Rentaghost (which only managed to survive as duplicate copies were still being sold overseas and these were the ones retrieved after Mr.Lee had done his bit!)

I don't even think it was a "business decision" that Pamela Nash made. She was at that time probably just another employee just doing her job and (understandably) disposing of surplus stock that she assumed would exist in duplication at the proper library (the fact that there wasn't a proper default referral process in place to check this was the case back then shows the holes in BBC archive policy at the time - i.e. there wasn't one, despite claims to the contrary that all "important" stuff was being kept. It clearly wasn't or we'd have a more balanced and comprehensive collection now if that were the case.)

If you do a search though, i'm sure you'll find a myriad of threads covering this topic as - shall we say? - it has been touched on once or twice before!

[Rob Moss]

I think it's a criticism.

To me, what Lee did is far worse that what Pamela Nash did. Nash junked copies of programmes that her department had no need for. It wasn't her job to wonder whether copies existed elsewhere. Lee however, made a conscious decision to junk programmes that he knew didn't exist anywhere else. I can understand what Pamela Nash did, but Adam Lee's actions were calculated and woefully shortsighted.

[Deleted]

Yes, quite agree, Rob.

[Rob Moss]

Sept 8, 2011 13:02:11 GMT @laurencepiper said:

Yes, quite agree, Rob.

Even the bit about Pamela Nash..? Blimey...