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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2011 10:55:29 GMT
The trouble with a limited preservation policy (at least as limited as TV's has been in the past) is that many people will agree in principle as long as their own favourite show is included! The work we are talking about here though (much Armchair Theatre and a lot of Rediffusion's best efforts) are anything but unimportant. So, as you say, the BFI certainly made errors. Not just small ones either. I wonder how many other instances there have been like this that aren't common knowledge though?
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Post by stevearkless on Feb 28, 2011 11:14:48 GMT
im very shocked! to hear about armchair theatre , being dumped .in cyprus. how can anyone do this?is that all the tapes? are there anymore lost british tv shows in their archives?
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Post by Rob Moss on Feb 28, 2011 12:35:16 GMT
im very shocked! to hear about armchair theatre , being dumped .in cyprus. how can anyone do this?is that all the tapes? are there anymore lost british tv shows in their archives? Not any more! You have to remember that these were film prints of ancient black and white shows that didn't belong to the broadcaster in Cyprus. If they need the space, should they really be expected to bust a gut tracking down the copyright owner, when it is reasonable for them to assume that the copyright owner will have their own copies..? After all, the copyright owner has had how many decades to ask for them back..? |
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Post by Jeff Lewis on Feb 28, 2011 13:03:04 GMT
I get the feeling from British companies that colour is good - black and white is bad. Surely if an outlet could be found to broadcast these old programmes on one the Sky channels it would bring preservation back in to the public consciousness and entertain at the same time. This country tells the world what great programme makers we had but never let's anybody view anything that is not populist.
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Post by Gary Robinson on Feb 28, 2011 16:57:55 GMT
Wouldnt it have been better for the prints to be salvaged first then any copyright sorted out from there?also the copyright owner cannot have been that bothered to let them all be junked.
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Post by Rob Moss on Feb 28, 2011 20:07:58 GMT
Wouldnt it have been better for the prints to be salvaged first then any copyright sorted out from there?also the copyright owner cannot have been that bothered to let them all be junked. But salvaging costs money. If the prints had been rescued from the vault they were in, they would have had to be stored somewhere - at a cost to someone. If they'd been shipped off to somewhere else, that would have been at a cost to someone. And if you then find out that the prints were copies of episodes that already existed and that the copyright owner didn't need them back, who would foot the bill..? Sadly it's not cheap to store films, and if there genuinely didn't seem (to the Cyprus TV company) to be any value in keeping them, it's easy to see why they were thrown away. A crying shame, yes, but that's from the perspective of people who know the archive status of this series, and who don't have to cough up the money to keep the things. |
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Post by Robert Belford on Feb 28, 2011 21:52:37 GMT
Is an optical conversion a video camera pointed at a TV screen? As far as cans of films are concerned, unfortunately there are often situations where you can see something but it's hard to do anything about it. I'm reminded of people who have been taken to court for taking things out of skips or bins. Year ago I was around when a cinema was demolished. Many good things ended up in the rubble because they belonged to the person who owned the building, he didn't want them, but anyone else taking them would have been guilty of theft. The other issue with limited preservation is that tastes change. Some of the worthy things the BBC saved in the past are as dull dishwater. Malcolm Muggeridge interviewing some bishop etc. For example, the early Callan episodes held by the BFI on this format. Inferior optical conversions were made some years ago but when it came to the Network DVD release recently, it became clear that the BFI had by now junked the originals and these inferior copies were all that remained! |
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Post by Andrew Doherty on Feb 28, 2011 23:47:35 GMT
Although this is of little consolation, I have considered the possibility that the sixty or so 'Armchair Theatre' productions might have been copies of the dramas that exist. If not then the highly desired 'No Trams To Lime Street', which the BFI made special mention in their top ten of most desired television programmes could have been one of the Cyprus hoard. Moreover, a number of others such as 'Underground' (as mentioned in another posting) could have been present.
My guess, as well as hope, is that it was a series of copies that were made from the programmes that were recorded and survived. However, unless there is a list of this hoard it is unlikely that we can ever know for certain.
If there were some made from junked material, there is nothing to say that other copies weren't made for other parts of the world where television existed. Again, this means that there is a remote possibility that they may still exist in, as yet, not explored, either fully or at all, archives. If the University of California Library has yet to be explored fully along with other possible archives, the last word has yet to be called on the subject.
Small comfort, but anything is possible after last year's spectacular finds.
Yours,
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Feb 28, 2011 23:54:10 GMT
...the highly desired 'No Trams To Lime Street', which the BFI made special mention in their top ten of most desired television programmes could have been one of the Cyprus hoard. By coincidence, the Wednesday Play version of No Trams to Lime Street was amongst the films I found in Cyprus. Paul |
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Post by Andrew Doherty on Mar 1, 2011 0:17:37 GMT
...the highly desired 'No Trams To Lime Street', which the BFI made special mention in their top ten of most desired television programmes could have been one of the Cyprus hoard. By coincidence, the Wednesday Play version of No Trams to Lime Street was amongst the films I found in Cyprus. Paul I wondered what other BBC programmes may have been found with the early 'Z Cars' episodes. It is good to know that the BBC Television version was recovered. Yours, |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2011 10:09:27 GMT
Is an optical conversion a video camera pointed at a TV screen? The other issue with limited preservation is that tastes change. Some of the worthy things the BBC saved in the past are as dull dishwater. Malcolm Muggeridge interviewing some bishop etc. Yes, that's an optical conversion. It often produces a smeary look to motion. I think the thing being argued for here is not that everything be kept (although more should have been kept and more carefully selected) but that TV as a medium should demand equal time to cinema preservation from a company that makes great claims to it's importance (and now, in fact, archives large amounts of it, even though we don't know how carefully). The BFI make a big splash with their movie DVD releases but where is the TV material? They need to practice what they preach more. The other issue with these Armchair Theatres was that Weintraub were not informed about the prints and so did not even have the option to recover them themselves (or not). Not Paul's fault as he thought he was doing the best thing by telling the BFI (who are always going on about finding missing material) but when they were offered something that - by their own definition - was considered important, they declined to act. Bad practice however you look at it. |
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Post by Andrew Doherty on Mar 1, 2011 10:44:44 GMT
I think the thing being argued for here is not that everything be kept (although more should have been kept and more carefully selected) but that TV as a medium should demand equal time to cinema preservation from a company that makes great claims to it's importance (and now, in fact, archives large amounts of it, even though we don't know how carefully). The BFI make a big splash with their movie DVD releases but where is the TV material? They need to practice what they preach more. The other issue with these Armchair Theatres was that Weintraub were not informed about the prints and so did not even have the option to recover them themselves (or not). Not Paul's fault as he thought he was doing the best thing by telling the BFI (who are always going on about finding missing material) but when they were offered something that - by their own definition - was considered important, they declined to act. Bad practice however you look at it. As stated before, Laurence, the situation requires the separation of the television archive under a new and dedicated organization, viz. 'The British Television Institute', but as we all know the BFI has now been handed the work of the 'British Film Council' so I would say the need for a separate organization to look after and promote the television archive is even greater. The only problem is how this could be achieved, with the kind of financial problems now present, unless the BFI 'hives off' the Television archive under a separate dedicated department. Still, this could come about in time. Yours, |
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Post by Robert Belford on Mar 1, 2011 13:06:00 GMT
As mentioned, I would dearly love to see 'Underground' - one of the most historic and tragic moments in ITV history. Verity Lambert took over directing while the director rewrote the script. I would like to see what the result was.
Were all Armchair Theatre episodes recorded/telerecorded? 1958 would be just before videotape arrived at ITV?
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Mar 1, 2011 13:24:21 GMT
I wondered what other BBC programmes may have been found with the early 'Z Cars' episodes. There were a total of 13 episodes of Z Cars (the first seven of series one and 5 from series 2), the entire 1959 series of 'Bleak House' (11 missing programmes), all 6 episodes of the Francis Durbridge thriller 'The Desperate People' (although the BFi do hold the master 35mm originals but the BBC didn't have anything), a selection of the Susan Hamphire 'Katy' serial, some single plays (I don't have a list to hand but it included the aforementioned 'No Trams to Lime Street'), 'Sportsreel' from 23/11/1963, a lot of documentaries, Zoo Quest etc..., pretty mch every episode of Captain Pugwash from the 1950's and much more. I'll see if I can find my record book. Paul |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2011 14:07:05 GMT
Were all Armchair Theatre episodes recorded/telerecorded? 1958 would be just before videotape arrived at ITV? I would doubt they all were as a matter of course (the series began in 1956) but a handful from 1957 do exist at the BFI. It would be interesting to know from what point they were recorded regularly. The earliest examples were probably recorded straight to film although the odd one or two from 1960 onwards still survive on 405 VT. Videotape wasn't brought in for all programmes straight away and I don't know when it was first used on AT. Rediffusion had it in 1958, for certain, but i'm not sure about ABC. From Paul's rundown, it would seem that Cyprus was a real goldmine for missing material! |
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