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Post by LanceM on Dec 24, 2011 2:44:57 GMT
I firmly agree there Bob. Very interesting to see the compare and contrast aspect ratio re-broadcast info presented in context, quite interesting indeed.Very good for you in messaging the chaps at the BBC letting them know about this. Hoping the more they hear about the general public and enthusiasts interests here in all of this archive TV material, that they might bolt upright jump to attention, and really make some waves in this pond! Of course, a big, we will see. But I would like to think, as others do here in that these recent discoveries of Jean Jeanie and the two Doctor Who episodes in particular may assist greatly in boosting general interest and knowledge in regards to missing materials. Just another crazy hair-brained thought is all, of course. Hoping everyone's holiday season's are going well so far!
Cheers, Lance.
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Post by nicadare on Dec 24, 2011 9:42:50 GMT
Thanks for that Simon, I'd rather be watching the 14:9 on a 4:3 CRT television than watching 16:9 on a plasma/LED/LCD widescreen television there seems to be a huge chunk of the picture missing both top and bottom in the 16:9 ratio.
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Post by Simon B Kelly on Dec 24, 2011 15:35:06 GMT
All new BBC shows are made in 16:9 so they can either:
a) stretch the clip like they did in the BBC News Clip b) crop it like they did for TOTP2 c) add bars - this will reduce the resolution but only if the show is in SD. If it's HD then the footage will be upscaled and none of the original definition will be lost.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2011 16:04:23 GMT
The new (2011) compilation "Country at the BBC" shown last night was in 4:3, so not all new shows are made in 16:9. Also the recent second part of the "Singer - Songwriters" series was in 4:3.
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Post by Simon B Kelly on Dec 24, 2011 18:57:37 GMT
The new (2011) compilation "Country at the BBC" shown last night was in 4:3, so not all new shows are made in 16:9. Also the recent second part of the "Singer - Songwriters" series was in 4:3. Yes, but those programmes were compiled using "old" footage. The Jean Genie is going to be inserted into a "new" programme using recent interviews with people who worked at TVC, and therefore will contain both 16:9 and 4:3 material. Any programme consisting primarily of newly recorded footage will be edited in 16:9.
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Post by Sal Mohammed on Dec 24, 2011 22:29:45 GMT
The new (2011) compilation "Country at the BBC" shown last night was in 4:3, so not all new shows are made in 16:9. Also the recent second part of the "Singer - Songwriters" series was in 4:3. Yes, but those programmes were compiled using "old" footage. The Jean Genie is going to be inserted into a "new" programme using recent interviews with people who worked at TVC, and therefore will contain both 16:9 and 4:3 material. Any programme consisting primarily of newly recorded footage will be edited in 16:9. True but BBC4 did keep the correct ratio for Pink Floyd at the BBC which used both 4:3 and 16:9 footage.
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Post by alistairwilson on Dec 24, 2011 23:01:48 GMT
Any chance BBC4 could show The Jean Genie in 4:3 ratio - and with no DOG - in one of those standalone 5 minute slots they used to use quite often a few years ago?
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Post by Simon B Kelly on Dec 25, 2011 0:41:23 GMT
True but BBC4 did keep the correct ratio for Pink Floyd at the BBC which used both 4:3 and 16:9 footage. The Pink Floyd compilation was just archive footage, ending with their appearance at Live 8 in 2005. Although Live 8 was shot in 16:9, the DVDs are available in 4:3 in a lot of countries, so it was obviously intended to be viewed both ways. EDIT: Just scanned through my copy of "A Pink Floyd Miscellany: 1967-2005" and it is actually a 16:9 production. They kept the correct aspect ratio for the 4:3 performances by adding black bars either side. Hopefully, this is the option they'll choose when editing "Tales From Television Centre"...
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Post by neilwilkes on Dec 26, 2011 11:51:46 GMT
This mess is caused by a couple of factors. 1 - The PAR (Pixel Aspect Ratios) have all been changed recently for SD broadcast. 2 - Nobody seems to have told the workers at the BBC, who use Apples FCP. The problems are basically that Square Pixel widescreen used to be worked as 1024x576 pixels but has been changed to 1050x576. This is to "avoid" the black bars at left & right on a non overscanning system. The presence of these black bars in the image above shows me that the broadcast masters werew prepared at 1024x5765, and not 1050x576. Likewise it has all changed for Square Pixels too. It used to be 768x576 but is now 788x576. See help.adobe.com/en_US/AfterEffects/9.0/WS3878526689cb91655866c1103906c6dea-7f3aa.html but be warned this is a page of self-serving BS in my opinion, as everybody I know who works in Post Production uses the old square pixel counts of 1024x576 and 768x576. Apple's FCP also uses 640x480 for Square Pixels, which explains a lot too. Also, the modern habit of cropping infiriates me more than I can say - any images we get in full-frame (4:3) that are for broadcast or authoring to DVD are always encoded as 16:9 but in pillarbox mode - we feel maintaining the correct PAR is important & I would always much rather see the original image and not a cropped one. Frankly, changing the PAR after 10 years is a bloody stupid idea.
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Post by squidney on Dec 26, 2011 12:57:03 GMT
As it'll soon be the case that everyone receives their TV digitally and no longer by analogue, I have a suggestion for TOTP2. When showing something that was originally 4:3, why not show it in the 4:3 ratio in the 16:9 frame, but with the picture on the left hand side of the screen, whilst the remainder of the screen can be taken up with an area for the TOTP graphics? That way, you can watch the original footage in the shape it was intended without any graphics obliterating the action - any info is displayed on the right beside the image.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2011 14:39:22 GMT
That would be a good solution when the time comes that we can all crop the excess captioned area on our sets at home to just see the 4:3 image.
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Post by lfbarfe on Dec 26, 2011 23:39:24 GMT
All new BBC shows are made in 16:9 so they can either: a) stretch the clip like they did in the BBC News Clip b) crop it like they did for TOTP2 c) add bars - this will reduce the resolution but only if the show is in SD. If it's HD then the footage will be upscaled and none of the original definition will be lost. 4:3 material on BBC channels is ingested into the playout servers as pillarboxed 16:9, and then flagged so that the black bars are invisible on transmission (most of the time). As a result, 4:3 material is always effectively 544x576 whether pillarboxed or not.
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Post by Peter Roberts on Dec 27, 2011 0:26:20 GMT
4:3 broadcasts on the BBC are different on satellite and terrestrial. On satellite they use the whole 720 pixel width, and are flagged to be shown as 4:3 (although my current set up, a Sky+ HD box linked to a Panasonic TV via HDMA, completely ignores this flag).
On terrestrial, by contrast, the broadcasts are pillorboxed 16:9 as you describe.
It would be surprising to me if the servers stored it with black bars, with an actual picture area of 544x576, given that the satellite broadcast stream is 720x576 with no black bars.
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Post by lfbarfe on Dec 27, 2011 14:30:00 GMT
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Post by Thomas Walsh on Dec 29, 2011 3:07:10 GMT
I've got a mute button on my remote control..!! :-)
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