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Post by Ray Langstone (was saintsray) on Feb 15, 2010 16:15:30 GMT
I remain entirely sceptical about this. I will try and contact someone in the next few days who has had access to the BBC archives, and also has been in touch with the poster of the YouTube clip.
I also remain highly sceptical that the BBC would have allowed another company (presumably with non-union labour, a sore point in the 60's/70's) to film. I didn't managed to find anything in regard to BoMarScope in a Google search.
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Post by Paul Cooksley on Feb 15, 2010 19:50:37 GMT
Well, some more interesting information and opinions to share about this Hollies clip. First of all, I had an email from a friend of mine who is a collector and historian who trust me, knows what he is talking about. After seeing the original upload, he shared these thoughts with me to share with you... " That film clip of Bus Stop definitely appears to NOT be from a televised version of TOTP.
First, many reasons why I think, it is on 16mm FILM, not a kinescope from tape, & NOTE all of the (semi messy) physical splices at almost every scene change? Actually, this comes across as a splice old work print!
This film clip was staged, & probably re-shot over & over with one camera to get all the different angles!
They just were able to use that sound-stage & dancers as props I would think, also, the guys are wearing clothes that look more like everyday casual wear." If that isn't intriguing enough, this morning, the mod on "Elevated Observations" a Hollies forum shared this interesting mail he received about that clip which corresponds neatly with my friend's opinion above... " For your records, this clip of the Hollies Bus Stop was shot on 16mm film 1200' of B/W Film for the Video Jukebox Company BorMar Scope, I was the editor for the BoMar Scope Corp. and edited this film Clip and many others. This film clip was shot on the same stage as the show Top Of The Pop for BoMar Scope this is not a Kinescope print like all the Top Of The Pops Shows were, this is 16mm Black And White film. There were many many groups filmed for BoMar Scope Corp. and I edited all the shows and still have all the 16mm Film OUT TAKES Colur and B/W on the shows and I'am the COPYRIGHT HOLDER!!
So tell all your friends that this IS NOT FROM TOP OF THE POPs this was a special made-up Show.
" The plot thickens. So, we are now being led to believe this is NOT a TOTP performance... it's certainly shot in the TOTP studio, but NOT by the BBC. So, maybe it is time to start investigating BoMar Scope Corp. It is intriguing that the BBC allowed their studio and sets to be used for filming by such a company. This now opens up the questions - are the other isolated TOTP clips from 1966 and 1967 - Manfred Mann, Jimi Hendrix and The Kinks - sourced from BoMar? What other rarities do BoMar have? Hmmmm..... Interesting, but like others, I am a tad sceptical regarding the fact that the BBC would have allowed the TOTP studio to double up for something else not actually seen on the show..... However, having said that, I must admit, I did wonder, when watching it, as it does seem to have a kind of almost 'false start' - ie what i mean is, there is no fade up/appaluse at the very start of the clip - and again - the fade to black at the end perhaps indicates that maybe it might not have been the actual "take" used in the programme itself. Be interesting to hear some more views on this.....
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2010 20:20:43 GMT
I agree with your opinion Paul. I found it odd how there is that dead bit of silence at the start, with Graham Nash awaiting the music to start. I also found the shot with the band soaking up the applause at the end unusually overlong. That's why I guessed it had to be an insert film. Had it come from 16th June then surely it would had faded in and the camera would had cut away to Pete Murray at the end much quicker than that. So this must had been shot after the broadcast. The jury is now out as to whether it is the insert for the following weeks' show or whether it really is a specially shot performance for the music jukebox firm. I trust my pals opinion when he reckons it was shot on 16mm film as opposed to being a t/r so that adds to the intrigue.
It is very strange the BBC would allow an outside film unit use of their facilities. This kind of thing has never been documented before, so it warrants further investigation.
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Post by Thomas Walsh on Feb 15, 2010 21:19:54 GMT
It's definitely an 'insert', of that we'd all agree (start and finish giving that away) but the Beeb letting anyone else into their world.....in 1966?? I did some work there in 2009 and it's a beautifully weird closed shop.....STILL!! ;D
T.
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Post by simonwells61 on Feb 15, 2010 23:31:09 GMT
This all seems most strange. The fact it is shot on film at- or around- the same time TOTP was shot make it seem a little bizarre. Given that the lighting may well have to be reset; the cameras changed, the "new" audience brought in, and (not least) union clearance-especially in 1966- makes it hard to believe. But I agree with many of the points raised here that it seems it was especially shot. Equally, I can't believe the set up would just be for the Hollies, but who knows.
What a conundrum!
Si
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Post by Paul Watkins on Feb 15, 2010 23:57:56 GMT
Very interesting developments indeed If this persons claims are real then it would be fairly easy to prove if he could supply more clips (to youtube maybe) to back up this story, or a list of what he has? As to another company using the BBC studios back in 66, wasn't the Beatles clip in Doctor Who, a specially filmed performance on film used as the insert in that episode? Was that done by the BBC or another company? I would tend to agree that this is an insert of sorts, but as to it being filmed by BoMar Scope?
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Post by bleslie7 on Feb 16, 2010 0:43:26 GMT
It is time someone in an official capacity at the BBC (if indeed the paper trail still exists) confirm the claims made concerning the background of this clip. It is far too an interesting clip and so a valuable historical document to just pass up on. The guy may well be correct.
Looking at the clips intro & outro in detail, this cannot be the proper TOTP performance of the song. It has to be a rehersal, or more likely, a separate shoot which makes the Bomar scope claim very legitimate in my eyes. The claim of copyright ownership on the basis of the guy being the official film editor would be seriously under question though. I hope he has received some good legal advice before making such a claim. I do not expect those duplicate Bomarscope-made clips of The Hollies "Bus Stop" to last long on Youtube now. They will be taken down quick as a flash.
On a different note, unfortunately sites like Youtube also bring along all the gold diggers as well. You can see this behaviour with all sorts of "teaser" material that gets posted and taken down quick as a flash. Top of The Pops material is just one of the examples. Just look at all that Colour insert material from 1969 and the guy who refuses all contact. If that is not gold digging, then I do not know what is. Whilst the recent Youtube posting of "Bus Stop" from the retired film editor in the USA does probably not fit "gold digging", I am also left very puzzled by his subsequent behaviour - amazing that he was good enough to initially share this amazing find with us in the first place but now - was any TV station in the world really going to broadcast an obscure Spencer Davis or Johns Children promotional film anyway? - if it was The Beatles maybe - otherwise, forget it. And speaking of The Beatles, if that lost 16mm film of that long-rumoured TOTP does exist then all I can say is shame on the person that is hoarding it. I am sorry, I just do not get this kind of behaviour at all. Life is too short. Who is going to give a continental in 50 years time when many of us will no longer be here?
So it is proven that the Bomarscope guy is correct all along - so what? And so the master of this amazing clip disappears into some black hole for another 50 years? Unless the material is officially released in some shape or form then stop wasting all of us mere mortals time and energy. We are all too willing to pay for the release of material, but instead we are left with thousands of hours of great material gathering dust in archives around the world.
Sorry, but this recent development and discussion has left a very sour taste in my mouth.
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Post by Thomas Walsh on Feb 16, 2010 3:09:54 GMT
I totally agree Brett. The Move.....a long thought lost performance of 'California Man' is found in the vaults of BBC Scotland. What fantastic news especially as an anniversary release of 'Message From The Country' is about to come out. Cue the Beeb who ask for £10.000 for use of the 2.50 clip as an added CD-Rom/Video bonus on the C.D.
Idiots....we're a long time gone and I'm with you Brett.....it's sickening really.
T.
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Post by Ray Langstone (was saintsray) on Feb 16, 2010 9:27:14 GMT
I have literally just sent an email to my contact who is in touch with the original poster of the clip and also a TOTP expert who has previously visited the BBC archives. Will let you know what response I get.
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Post by John Fleming on Feb 16, 2010 9:40:26 GMT
Cue the Beeb who ask for £10.000 for use of the 2.50 clip as an added CD-Rom/Video bonus on the C.D. Double standards eh? The Beeb can ask 10k for a 2.50 clip but refuse to pay 20k for the PVL. Dunno about you but I think that stinks.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2010 15:27:58 GMT
Personally, I think this is an insert. The dead start / end would not be out of place in such a clip (for cueing purposes). I can well believe that existing TOTP clips were distributed to video juke boxes but not the other story, for various reasons already mentioned. However, i'll be happy to be proved wrong (but that will only come with the evidence of a credible / official source!) ;D
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Post by Rich Cornock on Feb 16, 2010 18:17:10 GMT
i think its more likely to be an insert for use in a future edition of TOTP. Quite possibly the Hollies were just filmed when they were available. Having been to TOTP myself a few times i have seen this practice done myself with artists that at the time were not in the charts and watched the clips inserted into a future show when they charted
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Post by bleslie7 on Feb 16, 2010 23:59:31 GMT
In relation to Brett's post: the man claiming to be the editor and (therefore obviously (!)) the copyright owner of the clip, can't be the same person who posted it on YouTube and who clearly identified it as being from TOTP - even in the file name. I am well aware they are two different people. To the person claiming "copyright" - that is the editor of Bomar scope films - he is more than likely correct. And obviously he has arranged for all copies to be removed from Youtube, which adds credibility to his claim. I ask this question - I wonder if there had been absolutely no interest in this clip at all when placed online then what would be the reaction - if any at all? World-wide interest suddenly gets people gold digging. Unless he is planning some sort of official release (doubtful given all the music clearances involved) then who gives a continental anyway? Us mere mortals will never see the films in our lifetime. To the guy from the US who put them on Youtube, obviously he has some degree of knowledge of the musical background, and it was great that he gave some of us a fleeting glimpse of some of the films held in his library. Those rare films of Spencer Davis, John's Children and the Hollies are wonderful. I cannot predict his next move, we will have to wait to see - obviously he was requested to remove the Hollies clip because of the Bomar scope claim and he has done this without waiting for the Youtube police to strike. What goes up on Youtube is there for the world to see.
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Post by bleslie7 on Feb 17, 2010 0:03:53 GMT
I totally agree Brett. The Move.....a long thought lost performance of 'California Man' is found in the vaults of BBC Scotland. What fantastic news especially as an anniversary release of 'Message From The Country' is about to come out. Cue the Beeb who ask for £10.000 for use of the 2.50 clip as an added CD-Rom/Video bonus on the C.D. Idiots....we're a long time gone and I'm with you Brett.....it's sickening really. T. Therein lies the basis to the problem and why we will NEVER get to see most of the material that rots away in archives around the world...50 dollars a second might be fine for a charge from one commercial TV station to another, but to apply such a charge to a home DVD release is a joke...time to come up with some more realistic clearance rates - anybody out there in TV land listening? ...enough said.
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Post by bleslie7 on Feb 17, 2010 0:06:41 GMT
Cue the Beeb who ask for £10.000 for use of the 2.50 clip as an added CD-Rom/Video bonus on the C.D. Double standards eh? The Beeb can ask 10k for a 2.50 clip but refuse to pay 20k for the PVL. Dunno about you but I think that stinks. The PVL question has come up previously - I know the issue was discussed at length in here, but the consortium option should be back on the table immediately. Another day goes by and every day is a step closer to death.
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