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Post by Greg H on Jul 8, 2008 18:11:53 GMT
My point is that if there were lots of episodes in private hands, you would expect them to turn up for sale from time to time -- but they dont. The major UK film dealers - Derann, CHC, Paul Foster, Ian O'Reilley buy large film collections all the time, but I don't think I've ever seen a Dr. Who print for sale on one of their lists... The same is true of Harry Moll in Australia, and all the US film dealers. You also almost never see them on ebay - and what I have seen on ebay have mostly been copies of the prints that were "borrowed" in the 1980s. If there were any sort of quantity of episodes out there, you would expect them to turn up from time to time for sale -- just like Star Trek prints turn up all the time. This doesnt mean that there aren't any out there - just that they're not common. (which is no surprising given that it is known that there were only a limited # of prints stuck and that most of those were returned or destroyed). Ah, but you seem to miss the point a little here. It is just the opposite, you WON'T expect 16mm prints of lost Dr Who stories to just pop up for sale on ebay. Because they would have the BBC jumping all over the place to get the episode back immediately. Since strictly speaking, it's current owner should not even have it in their possession in the first place. Many NZ collectors advised against Grenville going public with 'Lion'. Hence this was strictly a one off incident that we are not likely to see again. And like I stated somewhere above, Lion had been sold 'privately' quite a number of times in the past before it even reached Grenville, and yet no one in fandom ever heard a whisper about the previous sales, for the above reason. (And given Who's publicity over the years, no one is going to convince me that somewhere along the private sales line, that someone did NOT realise that Lion was a missing episode) It's the same in UK too. If private sales of a missing episode do occur, they occur VERY discreetly, just like Lion had been for so many years. Star Trek prints are different to Dr Who prints. In that A: There are a lot more of them and B: It is legal to own and publicly sell them. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't there a situation in UK where some guy in Portsmouth bragged of having a 1 part Troughton/Cyberman story, and he then practically had the BBC knocking on the door asking for it back?? Whilst I agree with some of what you say regarding discreet sales et, I dont remember any such story as you describe regarding Troughton/cybermen 16mms. Perhaps you are getting confused with some of Darren Gregory's antics in the early 90s?
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Post by JOHN SMITH on Jul 8, 2008 18:26:36 GMT
No - actually I think you missed my point -- The point is that EXISTING episodes do not turn up on ebay very much which means that there are not very many of them out there... This means that there are very few prints in private hands of ANY episodes (missing or not). The Star Trek analogy was to show that when there are a lot of prints around, some of them are going to turn up for sale. BTW it IS legal to own 16mm Dr. Who prints - and in fact the majority of 16mm prints in private hands were prints that Ian Levine purchased directly from the BBC.... Also - my undertanding of the BBC policy now is that they have no problem with private ownership of prints no matter where they came from - they just ask that if you have something missing, you let them borrow it. (I've loaned them about a dozen formerly missing films). The New Zealand case was one where the owner had no idea that the episode was missing until someone told him. And it didn't take long after that for it to be returned... In the end, the BBC copied the print and returned it to him and he sold it. Ah, but that's another point with Who prints. They are not stand alone stories. And 16mm prints are not everyone's cup of tea.
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Post by Steven Sigel on Jul 8, 2008 18:29:05 GMT
Human nature says that if someone really had a missing Dr. Who episode that they would most likely tell someone - and eventually the information would get out... More importantly, the possibile # of prints out there is very small to begin with - there just weren't that mant struck, and most of those were accounted for in one way or another. Yes, its possible that there's somethign out there - but very unlikely... If Dr. Who prints (of non-missing shows) were turning up all the time for sale, I might be willing to accept the argument that there might be some missing ones squirreled away - but given that there have been only a handful of episodes up for sale since I've been a film collector (20 years), it's massively unlikely. People sell off film collections all the time - if you check the major film dealers, they have new stuff all the time -- but never any Dr. Whos... Ebay is another data point -- I've seen a total of about 10 prints on ebay in the last 10 years - of those, all but 4 of them were either extra prints from Ian Levines collection, or dupe prints from the 80s. (the four that don't fit in these categories that I'm aware of are 'The Lion', Reign of Terror (6) , "Spearhead from Space (2), and "The Daleks (1)". (In comparison, during that same period, there have been about 500 prints of Star Trek). Yes, discreet being the operative word. If private individuals have stuff they want to sell on quietly, no one else (other than the buyer) is likely to know about it. Prints can very easily (and do, i'm sure) stay underground very deliberately, for whatever reason. For more missing episodes to turn up now that all the obviously visible ones are known of, scratching a lot further beneath the surface is required.
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Post by Daniel Myers on Jul 8, 2008 18:55:00 GMT
Materialistically speaking... another good reason to demonstrate that a "lost" episode still exists would be to increase the value of the print or tape. If one was looking for material gain, announcing and proving that they have a copy of a "lost" episode would generate real financial interest in the copy (through epay, collectors, private sales and the like). There is no requirement to return a lost episode to the BBC, so just keeping the original laying secretly around somewhere is a bit silly, as it makes it both otherwise worthless and prone to deterioration.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2008 19:19:44 GMT
Human nature says that if someone really had a missing Dr. Who episode that they would most likely tell someone - and eventually the information would get out... More importantly, the possibile # of prints out there is very small to begin with - there just weren't that mant struck, and most of those were accounted for in one way or another. Yes, its possible that there's somethign out there - but very unlikely... People sell off film collections all the time - if you check the major film dealers, they have new stuff all the time -- but never any Dr. Whos... I don't agree with the human nature thing. Another side of that coin is to keep something to yourself (and knowledge of it too) or it loses something of it's rarity value. I think there's a mentality among collectors that goes this route. But that's just assuming every last one of the as-yet undiscovered DW episodes are in the hands of collectors who know full well their worth. I don't believe that for one minute. The things you are talking about (e.g. Star Trek prints etc.) going on sale at regular intervals and through usual channels are what i'd call "surface level" stuff. I personally reckon there is a more rarified collecting thing that we'd probably never know existed. Apart from that, yes, you're right that another reason DW (specifically) prints don't turn up that often is because not that many copies were struck originally. But that doesn't rule out the possibility of there more being out there because many of those that have come up already have been against all logic and from the strangest of sources!
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Post by Steven Sigel on Jul 8, 2008 19:52:45 GMT
Human nature says that if someone really had a missing Dr. Who episode that they would most likely tell someone - and eventually the information would get out... More importantly, the possibile # of prints out there is very small to begin with - there just weren't that mant struck, and most of those were accounted for in one way or another. Yes, its possible that there's somethign out there - but very unlikely... People sell off film collections all the time - if you check the major film dealers, they have new stuff all the time -- but never any Dr. Whos... I don't agree with the human nature thing. Another side of that coin is to keep something to yourself (and knowledge of it too) or it loses something of it's rarity value. I think there's a mentality among collectors that goes this route. But that's just assuming every last one of the as-yet undiscovered DW episodes are in the hands of collectors who know full well their worth. I don't believe that for one minute. The things you are talking about (e.g. Star Trek prints etc.) going on sale at regular intervals and through usual channels are what i'd call "surface level" stuff. I personally reckon there is a more rarified collecting thing that we'd probably never know existed. Apart from that, yes, you're right that another reason DW (specifically) prints don't turn up that often is because not that many copies were struck originally. But that doesn't rule out the possibility of there more being out there because many of those that have come up already have been against all logic and from the strangest of sources! I'm not really sure what you mean about "rarified collecting thing". Are you suggesting that there is a vast underground film trade going on? While it's certainly true that people sell prints back and forth without posting them on ebay (for instance), this doesn't mean that there's a vast amount of stuff that no one ever hears about... As a related point - remember that people have been actively searching for Dr. Who prints for 30+ years ; the law of diminishing returns says that we're probably found most (if not all) of them by now...
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Post by JOHN SMITH on Jul 8, 2008 19:56:16 GMT
Then it's strange that none of the big collectors etc mentioned ever managed to purchase 'Lion' in the intervening years where it changed hands quite a few times before coming into Grenville's possession.
Film collecting can be a clandestine world. Evidence seems to show that film collecting of Dr Who prints is even clandestiner
And just because a 16mm Who print does not come up on Ebay every 2 minutes, does NOT mean that they are NOT changing hands by other means. Don't forget that Ebay charge for sales, which therefore eat into any profit.
If you know who the big collectors are, then they know each other too. A quick phone call or a posting on a message board seems far easier for them to do business with each other.
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Post by Steven Sigel on Jul 8, 2008 20:10:11 GMT
The Lion wasn't purchased by a Dr. Who collector simply because the prior owners didn't realize it was anything special. The collecting of Dr. Who film prints is not particularly clandestine -- there just aren't that many prints out there... Since I probably AM the largest collector of 16mm Dr. Who's - I can tell you that I have not seen any evidence of what you suggest --- actually I wish people would contact me with prints for sale - I'm always looking for more :-) Then it's strange that none of the big collectors etc mentioned ever managed to purchase 'Lion' in the intervening years where it changed hands quite a few times before coming into Grenville's possession. Film collecting can be a clandestine world. Evidence seems to show that film collecting of Dr Who prints is even clandestiner And just because a 16mm Who print does not come up on Ebay every 2 minutes, does NOT mean that they are NOT changing hands by other means. Don't forget that Ebay charge for sales, which therefore eat into any profit. If you know who the big collectors are, then they know each other too. A quick phone call or a posting on a message board seems far easier for them to do business with each other.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2008 7:56:42 GMT
The collecting of Dr. Who film prints is not particularly clandestine -- there just aren't that many prints out there... Since I probably AM the largest collector of 16mm Dr. Who's - I can tell you that I have not seen any evidence of what you suggest --- actually I wish people would contact me with prints for sale - I'm always looking for more :-) But maybe some of those prints out there just don't reside with collectors, which is what I said before. If they are out of "the loop" (which I reckon a lot of the still-to-be-found DW and other TV is) then collectors / film sellers will simply not be aware of their existence or of the people that have them, and this will probably continue to be so. It just doesn't follow that all existing film prints out there will reside with film-connected people!
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Post by Greg H on Jul 9, 2008 8:38:27 GMT
I don't agree with the human nature thing. Another side of that coin is to keep something to yourself (and knowledge of it too) or it loses something of it's rarity value. I think there's a mentality among collectors that goes this route. But that's just assuming every last one of the as-yet undiscovered DW episodes are in the hands of collectors who know full well their worth. I don't believe that for one minute. The things you are talking about (e.g. Star Trek prints etc.) going on sale at regular intervals and through usual channels are what i'd call "surface level" stuff. I personally reckon there is a more rarified collecting thing that we'd probably never know existed. Apart from that, yes, you're right that another reason DW (specifically) prints don't turn up that often is because not that many copies were struck originally. But that doesn't rule out the possibility of there more being out there because many of those that have come up already have been against all logic and from the strangest of sources! I'm not really sure what you mean about "rarified collecting thing". Are you suggesting that there is a vast underground film trade going on? While it's certainly true that people sell prints back and forth without posting them on ebay (for instance), this doesn't mean that there's a vast amount of stuff that no one ever hears about... As a related point - remember that people have been actively searching for Dr. Who prints for 30+ years ; the law of diminishing returns says that we're probably found most (if not all) of them by now... Yes, people have been searching for doctor who prints for 30 years. Is there anything to say that we know every single one of those people, or do we know for a fact that those people would definitely give anything they find back? Just because some people share, it doesnt mean that everyone would. Someone could hypotheticaly find quite a few prints in 30 years, with a bit of luck, and not share them around.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2008 9:00:32 GMT
Very true. Another factor to take into account is that there are a lot of people out there (rightly or wrongly) that have grievances with the BBC for junking so much material in the past and keep well out of the mainstream of collecting. I've come across many such people over the years but I can't imagine they would ever return something missing in a million years as it's not what it's about for them at all (some may but would want payment first - but that's another issue!). There are a lot of things to consider with the world of missing TV!
Again though, these are just some more of the actual collectors. Missing stuff is just as likely to be unknown and in the hands of people oblivious to it's worth.
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Post by John Andersen on Jul 11, 2008 4:07:32 GMT
Very true. Another factor to take into account is that there are a lot of people out there (rightly or wrongly) that have grievances with the BBC for junking so much material in the past and keep well out of the mainstream of collecting. I've come across many such people over the years but I can't imagine they would ever return something missing in a million years as it's not what it's about for them at all (some may but would want payment first - but that's another issue!). There are a lot of things to consider with the world of missing TV! Neil Lambess said the same thing about some film collectors in New Zealand. Some actually recommended that The Lion should not have been returned to the BBC.
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Post by Greg H on Jul 11, 2008 7:18:42 GMT
Its vaguely worrying that isnt it. If some of the collectors in NZ had prints of British exports, it is sort of proven that they wouldnt give them back. I have always had a weird hunch that theres some Troughtons over on that side of the planet....................... lurking.........
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Post by Alan Jeffries on Jul 11, 2008 7:42:53 GMT
Quite frankly, I'd not be surprised if there were still episodes of all types of show held by collectors. You see it all the time with things like paintings. The Scream, as way of example, thankfully recovered, was probably stolen to order. Would it have seen the light of day again or would it have been up on the wall in some vault. I remember also seeing a program a while back about the trade in antiquities. This one 'collector' had a vault of Mayan and Inca treasures, by his own admission all stolen, in an underground vault. It was all nicely displayed in cabinets. I'm sure what we see/hear about is just the tip of the iceberg.
Alan
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Post by beesa on Jul 11, 2008 7:57:06 GMT
Looking through this thread I would say the point about the BBC thing is less to do with having a gripe about their junking policy and far more to do with feeding an organisation that spends millions of pounds paying our money to foul mouthed TV and Radio presenters such as Chris Evans, Chris Moyles, Jonathan Ross, Graham Norton etc.
Dr Who fans fall into a genre and that ain't one where the people watch a TV programme where the host talks childish or adult smut or often cheekily throws in the occasional foul language (I think the Beeb euphemise it as "strong language" but to me it is weak, very weak language). That sort of stuff is done to be 'naughty' and done intentionally to rile and get up the noses of people such as many of us.
The BBC that produced Dr WHo is a very, very different machine than the overpaid trendy shower of today.
I think that just about answers the original question of this thread.
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