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Post by ethantyler on Jan 24, 2005 12:28:06 GMT
I've often wondered about this: Can we be one hundred percent certain that an episode or episodes definately were destroyed and cannot exist? I know it's often said that The Feast of Steven has gone forever, but is this certain? I mean, evidence proving it was junked doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't saved by a BBC employee, does it? Or if it got lost or something else happenened to it.
Basically, I'm wondering if we can be certain about the fate of any one episode (being destroyed forever).
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jan 24, 2005 17:44:26 GMT
I've often wondered about this: Can we be one hundred percent certain that an episode or episodes definately were destroyed and cannot exist? I know it's often said that The Feast of Steven has gone forever, but is this certain? Yes. Absolutely 100% gone. The episode was never telerecorded by BBC Enterprises and The Daleks' Master Plan was only ever offered for sale as an 11-part story just weeks after it had finished its UK transmission. The master videotape was cleared for wiping on 17 August 1967. Richard
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Post by Nigel Bland on Jan 24, 2005 17:55:41 GMT
For all the other episodes it's a little more difficult. Logically, the longer they remain missing the less likely they are to be found. Short of knowing for sure what happened to every copy made however, we can never be certain that they're lost for good. Very frustrating. Would it be better to know for sure, even if we then knew that some episodes would never be found?
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Post by Dave Wood on Jan 24, 2005 18:59:09 GMT
Records can be wrong though.
Common knowledge had it that the lost Avengers episode, "Girl on a Trapeze" was never telerecorded either, but it didn't stop us from finding a copy in the UCLA archive.
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Post by Gary Robinson on Jan 24, 2005 19:21:28 GMT
What are the chances of this being released on a DVD in the near future?
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jan 24, 2005 20:11:22 GMT
Records can be wrong though. Common knowledge had it that the lost Avengers episode, "Girl on a Trapeze" was never telerecorded either, but it didn't stop us from finding a copy in the UCLA archive. Yes, but we know for a *fact* that The Daleks' Master Plan was only ever offered for sale as an 11-part story and was done so from the word go. Letters from BBC Enterprises to television companies and their own sales literature is a testament to that. The only reason that The Feast of Steven would have been telerecorded would have been so that it could have been sold overseas. The one person we know who had a vested interest in the programme and who went through the cards in situ at BBC Enterprises said that there were cards in Enterprises office for every episode except The Feast of Steven. I think the evidence is overwhelming. Richard
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John Stewart Miller
Guest
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Post by John Stewart Miller on Jan 26, 2005 22:11:08 GMT
Yes. Absolutely 100% gone. The episode was never telerecorded by BBC Enterprises and The Daleks' Master Plan was only ever offered for sale as an 11-part story just weeks after it had finished its UK transmission. The master videotape was cleared for wiping on 17 August 1967. Richard However, there was the case of the technician who recorded an unofficial T/R of the 'Top of the pops' Sandie Shaw rehearsal. So I would argue though its unlikely, the possibility of an unofficial copy in some form remains. - P.S. Dalek operator Robert Jewel had a set of telesnaps, published in the Doctor Who bulletin I recall, circa 1987 (Saw this in 'Forbidden Planet' London).
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jan 26, 2005 22:45:26 GMT
However, there was the case of the technician who recorded an unofficial T/R of the 'Top of the pops' Sandie Shaw rehearsal. So I would argue though its unlikely, the possibility of an unofficial copy in some form remains. - P.S. Dalek operator Robert Jewel had a set of telesnaps, published in the Doctor Who bulletin I recall, circa 1987 (Saw this in 'Forbidden Planet' London). But taking a set of photographs whilst your sitting in front of your television set at home is a world away from someone making a telerecording of an episode that never got anywhere near a the BBC's telerecording suite in the first place! Richard
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Post by Stephen Neve on Jan 28, 2005 15:59:26 GMT
One is the simple answer: MASTERPLAN 7
Very Unlikely: Mission to the Unknown! Rest of Masterplan, excluding episode 4.
As for the rest, you don't know. When every single person, every single inch of the planet has been combed then we will know the answer, untill then you never know.
Never say never again.
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John Stewart Miller
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Post by John Stewart Miller on Mar 3, 2005 16:19:52 GMT
But taking a set of photographs whilst your sitting in front of your television set at home is a world away from someone making a telerecording of an episode that never got anywhere near a the BBC's telerecording suite in the first place! Richard I agree with this. My point was that where all official channels are exhausted & destroyed, individuals such as the home taper come into play. Though this is very unlikely, the Bob Monkhouse 1960s taping scenario comes to mind. I wouldn't like to go down the 'wishing something into existance just as I liked it & it was well made; therfore I don't accept its destruction' line. I would however, say that the evidence presented re: 'Feast of Steven' says it's highly unlikely, disappointingly to the ardent 'Who' fan, it exists. But I wouldn't like to predict any programme definitely doesn't exist, simply as the evidence I present in this e-mail suggests another channel of acquisition that comes into play. The existance of telesnaps for any programme doesn't relate to it's potential existance necessarily as Photographer John Cura was commissioned to take photos for professional use for programme makers & artists C.V.s. But this doesn't relate to my comment about the TOTP unofficial T/R. To recap, you must mean the telesnaps owned by Robert Jewell of the episode. These appeared in DWB circa 1987, and were probably purchased by Jewell for his C.V. as the show displayed other aspects of his acting; rather than as a monster with several character parts, including a Clown.
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Post by Richard Bignell on Mar 3, 2005 18:34:43 GMT
To recap, you must mean the telesnaps owned by Robert Jewell of the episode. These appeared in DWB circa 1987, and were probably purchased by Jewell for his C.V. as the show displayed other aspects of his acting; rather than as a monster with several character parts, including a Clown. They were photographs taken by Robert Jewell himself, not by Cura. The Daleks' Master Plan, along with much of the third season was not photographed by Cura. Some actors did indeed use Cura's services, but by far the biggest purchaser of the telesnaps was the BBC themselves, the Drama Department alone spending thousands of pounds a year on them. Richard
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Post by Ash Stewart on Mar 3, 2005 22:59:48 GMT
I would say that about circa 90%* of the 108 missing episodes are gone forever. It's just a case of which 90%... * - and that's being optimistic...!
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Post by Shane Anderson on Mar 4, 2005 3:58:41 GMT
I think there may still be episodes out there that will never be recovered and will eventually be destroyed. I think it's entirely possible that some have been even since the overseas hunt has taken place. I have no real evidence for this of course, so I"m not claiming it as fact, but it's entirely possible that a station which has no time or inclination to search it's archives is also just as likely to throw out old stock as keep it.
That's the pessimistic view of course, but it's realistic I think. Time is our enemy here of course, and the more time that goes by, the less likelihood we have of anything that still exists now turning up.
Having said all that, I'm still hopeful for some more. I think episodes have been lost forever, but it's impossible to say which ones.
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Post by William Martin on Mar 4, 2005 17:00:06 GMT
and of course we won't know when there are no more to find
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