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Post by Peter Elliott on Apr 14, 2008 15:01:02 GMT
They haven't fared too badly at all, archive-wise, with a good selection of performances in both b/w and colour from various shows over the years and even a couple of TOTP appearances. Much better than many other notable acts, in fact, who should have been preserved more comprehensively than they were. Definitely. I think that's partly down to the fact they had a wider appeal to people of all ages due to the clean cut image so they could get on a lot of variety based shows who would had had second thoughts of "heavier" or "hairier" groups. I do feel a lot of frustration when bands like The Who and The Rolling Stones are concerned. A lot has been lost but a lot has also survived of them... more than enough to get a general good idea of what and who they were about. Then you take bands like The Zombies, Paul Jones era Manfred Mann, The Action, The Pretty Things, and many more great bands and UK TV archives seem to be almost empty. Whilst we have contemporary footage surviving of almost all Beatles and Stones singles, the same cannot be said of a lot of other great bands and there are big holes in the TV archives. Just the way it panned out I suppose, but a shame nevertheless. |
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Post by lpmoderator on Apr 14, 2008 19:23:26 GMT
Couldn't agree more, Peter. The Kinks, Yardbirds, Manfred Mann, Zombies, The Hollies, Small Faces etc etc. All poorly served in the UK archives. Also, as you say, the lesser known (but influential) ones are the main victims (e.g. The Herd, Graham Bond Organisation, The Action, Pretty Things, Them, The Creation). Apart from the odd example, we've pretty much lost the whole of our pop archives before the early '70s; TOTP, Colour Me Pop, TYLS, Disco 2, The Beat Room etc etc. RSG has bizarrely fared marginally better but by no means well. Music has been more decimated in the archives than any other category of programming.
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Post by Peter Elliott on Apr 14, 2008 19:48:58 GMT
Music has been more decimated in the archives than any other category of programming. Indeed. Quite a few shows of which absolutely nothing has survived - not even titles. Keith Badman wrote about a series from 1964 hosted by David Jacobs which had bands performing on a stage in the middle of an ice rink... think it was called "The Cool Spot". The Clapton era Yardbirds played live on that... not a scrap of it left, nor of other shows like "Gadzooks". Then you look at what has survived of TOTP from it's first ten years... pitifully little and at the other extreme "Crackerjack!" Most of the major bands appeared on that and yet an entire 10 years of that 1964 to 1974 is completely gone... TYLS... just 3 shows out of several hundred... and on it goes. Truly criminal. Then sometimes what has survived is not necessarily a good example of the show... most notably "6-5 Special". That show is part of TV legend and had many cool acts on it yet the show seen on BBC4 was rather lame... though interesting of course. Makes one feel grateful that German TV took better care of their archives - we wouldn't have 1966 live footage of The Creation to name just one stellar example had it not been for them. I have always believed that pop music shows, usually frowned upon by the elder members of TV companies are better time capsules of the ever changing times... just look at a 1964 audience on RSG! or a 1970 TOTP audience and right away you see the fashion trends of the day and it dates it instantly making it a fascinating historical document. It's why I take Pop music TV very seriously! |
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Post by lpmoderator on Apr 15, 2008 11:14:32 GMT
I have always believed that pop music shows, usually frowned upon by the elder members of TV companies are better time capsules of the ever changing times... just look at a 1964 audience on RSG! or a 1970 TOTP audience and right away you see the fashion trends of the day and it dates it instantly making it a fascinating historical document. It's why I take Pop music TV very seriously! Yes, me too - for the very same reasons! I think I can vaguely recall in the recesses of my mind watching "Gadzooks" in the very early days of BBC-2 (we were lucky enough to have one of the first dual standard 405-625 sets in our house from day 1); can't recall much of it but I do recall The Beat Room a lot more as it was one of my regular viewing habits as a boy. Wasn't there also a short-lived BBC-2 Saturday afternoon magazine programme called Open House (or similar) around 1964 that also had live bands performing? I believe the Stones were on. It's one of those shows that has been almost forgotten and is hardly ever talked about! |
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Post by Kev Mulrenan on Apr 15, 2008 12:15:32 GMT
[/quote]
Wasn't there also a short-lived BBC-2 Saturday afternoon magazine programme called Open House (or similar) around 1964 that also had live bands performing? I believe the Stones were on. It's one of those shows that has been almost forgotten and is hardly ever talked about![/quote]
A few survive.
I remember looking them up on infax.
Was it a magazine type show? There seems to have been an element of Science/technology to it?
Gay Byrne was the presenter, a huge star in Ireland.
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Post by Peter Elliott on Apr 15, 2008 12:32:29 GMT
One commonly repeated untrue fact about "Gadzooks" not helped by the distinct absence of any material is that it was hosted by Peter Cook of course then riding high with "Not Only But Also". It wasn't... it was another guy called Peter Cook who cut a single "Georgia On My Mind" for Joe Meek in 1965!
When Infax was available, I spent a couple of hours examining all the details of the "Blue Peter" shows they have in the archive and there's quite a few pop items that have never been dug out. One I distinctly remember is Pinkertons Assorted Colours. They performed their hit "Mirror Mirror" on two editions in early 1966... would love to see those! I may be wrong but I also think they made a third appearance with a follow up single.
I do remember that they stopped featuring pop bands towards the middle of 1966, but from 1964 to 1966, of which quite a few shows survive, there is a whole load of pop footage that remains frustratingly out of reach.
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Post by lpmoderator on Apr 15, 2008 16:00:51 GMT
Yes, the first Pinkerton's appearance was their first TV appearance as well (so Val Singleton says in the intro anyway). What other groups appeared on BP, Peter? I know of DDDBM&T and Brian Poole & The Tremeloes - were there many more then? BP was not something I researched very much myself! Other shows to host groups during that fertile late '60s / early '70s era, of course, were The Basil Brush Show and Crackerjack. Sadly not anywhere near as well archived as Blue Peter though (at least not until further into the '70s, when the guest acts were nowhere near as good).
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Post by lpmoderator on Apr 15, 2008 16:09:09 GMT
A few survive. I remember looking them up on infax. Was it a magazine type show? There seems to have been an element of Science/technology to it? Gay Byrne was the presenter, a huge star in Ireland. Yes, that's the show i'm thinking of. I'm amazed if any survive complete. I'm not exactly sure what the format was; seems to be a mixture of various things. Andrew Martin could probably provide more details on the surviving editions (and indeed the pop acts on those '60s Blue Peters!) Can you help, Andrew? |
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Post by Peter Elliott on Apr 15, 2008 22:51:04 GMT
Yes, the first Pinkerton's appearance was their first TV appearance as well (so Val Singleton says in the intro anyway). What other groups appeared on BP, Peter? I Sadly I can't really remember and I wish I had made notes! A documentary of Children's TV last year featured clips of The Searchers and other songs by Freddie and The Dreamers and Brian Poole who were seen performing "I Want Candy" live. Freddie got Biddy Baxter into trouble when during the other song, he mimed pulling a toilet chain and Biddy had to make some daft explanation when confronted. As for "I Want Candy" when Poole sang the title the camera cut to some pet on top of which was a sign saying CANDY to make sure their viewers would get clean thoughts about the song!  The Pinkertons clip is of great interest to me, not just because it's a great record but I used to know the drummer personally, yet as he explained he was actually sitting in since the real drummer got injured or something. Anyway my pal said he played on the record and did a handful of TV appearances notably RSG and TOTP... so he's very likely to be on that first BP clip! |
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Post by Peter Prentice on Apr 16, 2008 10:50:41 GMT
I too, checked out the Blue Peter listings on Infax. The one thing that stood out for me was an apparent 1966 appearance by the Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band. I thought at the time the researcher must have mistaken them for the New Vaudeville Band, but who knows? Imagine... Valerie Singleton AND Vivian Stanshall!
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Post by Peter Elliott on Apr 16, 2008 11:15:11 GMT
I too, checked out the Blue Peter listings on Infax. The one thing that stood out for me was an apparent 1966 appearance by the Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band. I thought at the time the researcher must have mistaken them for the New Vaudeville Band, but who knows? Imagine... Valerie Singleton AND Vivian Stanshall! Yes! I'd forgotten about that one! It's true - the Bonzos did the show round the time of their debut single. Now this would feature Bob Kerr, the one member who jumped ship... The New Vaudeville Band was a studio only band and when "Winchester Cathedral" became a hit, a real band was thrown together so it could go on the road... Kerr joined and the Bonzos were dismayed when they saw them on TV using many of the Bonzo's gags and stunts. A truly bizarre combination - Valerie and Vivian! |
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Post by eric lawton on Apr 16, 2008 13:00:16 GMT
I remember Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Titch appearing on Blue Peter, and if my memory serves me right, Manfred Mann. I keep getting a flashback of the band on a merry go round. I stand to be corrected on that one though !
On the subject of Blue Peter, does the episode exist where the time capsule was buried. I think it was 1970. I was 9 years old and the day after at school, the teacher asked the question "How old will you all be in the year 2000, when its opened"
Blimey, 39 years old seemed a million miles away. It was a bit of an anti climax when it was opened and everything was p****d wet through.
I blame the Blue Peter Garden vandals !!
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Post by Peter Elliott on Apr 16, 2008 15:19:12 GMT
Yes, I'm pretty sure the time capsule episode exists. Seems that most if not all BP's have survived from 1970 onwards since Biddy Baxter saw to it that all shows were recorded. Many were preserved as b+w t/r's. I was fascinated by the clip of Tony Hicks of The Hollies playing a wireless guitar in late 1970 and checked that out on Infax. What made it even more memorable was the fact that John Noake's dog, Patch bit Hicks!
Patch died suddenly in 1971 and I recall reading the details of a tribute to Patch in one show where that Tony Hicks moment was used and even then, just months after it's original broadcast, in was on b+w film.
I have a feeling the Manfred Mann appearance hasn't survived. I'm a big Manfreds fan and am annoyed by the lack of Paul Jones era footage. BP stopped featuring bands in mid 1966. Mike D'Abo joined in June or July 66 so it would had been the Paul Jones line up on BP. I would had remembered had I seen details of them on Infax and sadly, don;t recall seeing any details on that.
1964 and 1965 have a lot in the BP archive but it gets fuller once 1966 comes along. What is pretty strange is that Christopher Trace's final show appears to be one of the rare omissions from the late 60s.
When BP has been documented and celebrated, I've always been surprised they never featured clips of moments like John Noakes and Peter Purves debut appearances, both shows of which exist. It would be fascinating to see a whole load of them. All we ever got was a batch of colour 1971 and 1972 shows on UK Gold during a short time in 1995 or 1996.
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Post by eric lawton on Apr 16, 2008 17:44:38 GMT
PeterElliot wrote
When BP has been documented and celebrated, I've always been surprised they never featured clips of moments like John Noakes and Peter Purves debut appearances, both shows of which exist. It would be fascinating to see a whole load of them. All we ever got was a batch of colour 1971 and 1972 shows on UK Gold during a short time in 1995 or 1996.
I agree Peter, I do have a few episodes from 1966, but BLUE PETER is certainly one of the programmes that would be great to see occasional shows from the vaults. In an ideal world, there should be a Childrens Gold channel ( for big kids like myself, and a few of you guys out there as well, I can safely say ) If it was on for just a few hours a day, or just say 4 or 5 programmes a day, repeated throughout the day in the same vein as the Autobiography channel or Performance channel. Just imagine.............CRACKERJACK - A show from 1968
BLUE PETER - An edition from 1970
JACKANORY - An edition from 1972
ANIMAL MAGIC - From 1969
I can only dream !!
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Post by Peter Elliott on Apr 16, 2008 18:08:38 GMT
We can only dream in the case of "Crackerjack!" There's absolutely NOTHING in the archive from 1965 to 1973.  From the 50s to 1964 there's about 6 or 7 shows in all I seem to recall and then I think a couple of them are incomplete. But yes, a specialist channel would be a great way to get what is left out there. The BBC Archive trial last year had a 1967 "Animal Magic" I recall but no "Blue Peter" save for one or two insert films notably one about Ghandi from 1969. I greatly enjoyed seeing "Play Away" from 1974 and 1975 on the trial... there was a "Vision On" from 1971 as well... Personally, I'd love to see episodes of BP, "Vision On", "Play Away", "Rentaghost", "Take Hart", "Think Of A Number", "Crackerjack", "Animal Magic", "Play School"... almost anything actually pre 1980's. It's therefore annoying when shows like "Grange Hill" get given a DVD release only to be hacked to ribbons and filmised. I fear most of these shows will remain in the archive out of reach... I know that "Vision On" is a legal nightmare when it comes to music clearance issues and that is just so sad and frustrating. |
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From the 50s to 1964 there's about 6 or 7 shows in all I seem to recall and then I think a couple of them are incomplete.