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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2008 10:10:12 GMT
I didn't know the early BBC schools pie chart existed - don't think when schools began - c. 1957? - there was a pie chart. There does seem to be a 'schools clock' listed on INFAX. The existing know 'pie' precedes an edtion of the apparently off air recorded series 'MATHS TODAY'. This dates from 1967 and has a percussive; glockenspiel and shaker theme music. This is the later version in which the whole clock design sudenly disappears to reveal the 'second hand' revolving. A few reconstructions have been posted on 'YouTube' but these seem to contrast what myself and Laurence Piper recall. In one I've recently seen there is a fade and dissolve of the segmented design; which I'm sure is completely wrong. The earlier 1964 - 66 used a cello theme. What I now recall of that version suggests that after 10 to 15 secs of music; one piece of the design suddenly disappeared to reveal the clock hand underneath. I think this clock hand was not in regular clock time; but 'jumped' every 3 seconds. When it eventually hit the next segment this would disappear. The 3 second lapse would explain why sometimes I looked away; and disappointed missed the next segment disappear. I calculate that it would have disappeared on the second of the three seconds; so in that moment looking away you might miss it. Ah, a topic close to my heart and i´d like to finally get the details correct for posterity! There are several recreations on the net which get the details completely and utterly wrong (which is very annoying as these have been presented as "fact" and so will be taken as such by all and sundry who don´t recall the era from personal experience). You´re right in that it´s thought that the pie chart began later than 1957 (thories vary as to when it was introduced although when I started watching around 1963 / 4, it was already in place). There is also a photo on the net of a monitor which seems to show a solar system picture with a BBC Schools logo superimposed, which seems to suggest a presentation style that pre-dates the pie chart. I also seem to recall an ´80s retrospective of some kind which showed a clip of the same graphic which was animated, showing a move across space to reveal the stars. I have no idea what´s on the 1957 recording that exists (can Andrew Martin enlighten us, I wonder? Are you reading this, Andrew?) but I very much doubt that it´s anything connected to the pie chart. Just to clarify / confirm your own memory, John, the earlier version (whether it´s the earliest of all is hard to say as it´s been suggested that the "BBC" ident in the corner MAY have had subtle variations to it - e.g. "BBC TV") in use up to 1967 was on 35mm film and had one minute of static chart followed by a second minute where chunks of the chart would gradually disappear to reveal a bit of the clockface beneath (with no hand on the clock). This is absolutely clear in my memory as I used to try and anticipate when the next chunk would disappear (and if you looked away from the screen at the wrong moment, you missed it!) This was accompanied by the cello piece. What i´m unclear about is how much disappeared at any one time - possibly it was five or ten second chunks although it could have been somewhere in between (each toned segment of the pie chart possibly disappearing in two halves). What is certain is that it did NOT disappear in one second increments or as a continuous wipe. Is there anyone else out there who also remembers the early pie chart first-hand that can provide more detail on how large each disappearing chunk was?
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Post by benclarke on Jan 9, 2008 15:44:23 GMT
I am nowhere near old enough to remember this era first hand, so this is all very interesting. There is one thing I can add which may be a little helpful. In the early days of schools TV (although not from the very beginning) the BBC used to print the tuning symbol and instructions on the inside cover of every set of teacher's notes. Here are photocopies of notes from (left to right) - Around Scotland, summer 1962 - Merry Go Round, spring 1965 - Merry Go Round, spring 1966 i188.photobucket.com/albums/z52/PJgsu/BBCteachers626566.jpg(Sorry, image host has shrunken the picture, here is a link to full size version www.lookingandseeing.co.uk/images/BBC%20teachers%2062%2065%2066%20big.jpg) I don't have any intervening ones at the minute unfortunately, and by spring 1967 they were no longer putting the tuning information in teacher's notes. All three do refer to "the last minute before the programme when the minute clock is on the screen." Maths Today, of course, was broadcast every year from 1967-8 to 1972-3, though both the Year 1 and Year 2 sets of programmes were in "(revised)" form after their first broadcast. So this recording that exists must be from Maths Today Year 1 in autumn 1967, which is later than all the images above. John, have you seen the recording to know what the programme itself was like? I would be most interested.
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Post by A.Doe on Jan 9, 2008 20:26:50 GMT
Well, I'm one of those who does the Flash recreations of old idents etc. It's good to know that people remember the Piechart differently, and that I was wrong about the 1957 'schools clock' being the Piechart.
Like Ben, I'm not old enough to remember it. I'm not even old enough to remember the Diamond, although I was alive for most of it's run.
The 2 existing examples of the Piechart are on Sub TV, as I posted above. One has the Maths Today titles at the end, but obviously not the whole programme. Both have a static Piechart, followed by the clock with the sweeping second hand. I can't remember if the music is the same on both, it's been a long time since I watched those clips.
The following is speculation. BBC1 changed from the 'Batwing' symbol to the map symbol and then the first globe up to 1963. If it was still using that tuning signal in 1962, that's odd because it wouldn't match the changes in presentation. Not that it necessarily would of been changed with the rest of the presentation though.
The Piechart seems to me to go hand in hand with the second globe, which had the square border around it, and a similar BBC TV / BBC logo in the bottom right. Maybe the Piechart was brought in about 1963, in it's disappearing segments form, but was changed to the static piechart and clock form by 1965.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2008 9:27:56 GMT
Well, I'm one of those who does the Flash recreations of old idents etc. It's good to know that people remember the Piechart differently, and that I was wrong about the 1957 'schools clock' being the Piechart. Like Ben, I'm not old enough to remember it. I'm not even old enough to remember the Diamond, although I was alive for most of it's run. The 2 existing examples of the Piechart are on Sub TV, as I posted above. One has the Maths Today titles at the end, but obviously not the whole programme. Both have a static Piechart, followed by the clock with the sweeping second hand. I can't remember if the music is the same on both, it's been a long time since I watched those clips. The following is speculation. BBC1 changed from the 'Batwing' symbol to the map symbol and then the first globe up to 1963. If it was still using that tuning signal in 1962, that's odd because it wouldn't match the changes in presentation. Not that it necessarily would of been changed with the rest of the presentation though. The Piechart seems to me to go hand in hand with the second globe, which had the square border around it, and a similar BBC TV / BBC logo in the bottom right. Maybe the Piechart was brought in about 1963, in it's disappearing segments form, but was changed to the static piechart and clock form by 1965. Ah, so you did some of those recreations! Glad you´re contributing to this thread...hopefully we can get the facts nailed once and for all. Thanks also to Ben for the interesting additional info regarding the tuning signals published in the pamphlets. This thread is getting more interesting by the minute! The ´62 image is the Bat´s Wing logo, which is odd as (I think) this had disappeared from normal continuity use by then, being replaced by the first globe. There are recordings from the time to bear this out. What they were using prior to schools programmes in the late ´50s must have been something different to the pie chart (my guess is that it was the solar system film mentioned earlier). ´63 seems like a logical time for the pie chart to have begun though, matching, as you say, the BBC globe introduced about then. The existing examples of the pie chart are both from the post 1967 era though and would be accompanied by the later percussion / xylophone music. It would seem very odd to me that no off-air filmed telerecordings exist from pre-´67 that contain even a fragment of the pre-programme sequence so I reckon there must be something somewhere. Also, the original 35mm film might still be knocking about. I´d really like to see the recreations amended so that the pie face disappears in the correct increments. Maybe we can get some of the Transdiffusion people contributing to this discussion too (where those recreations are on view)...
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Post by A.Doe on Jan 10, 2008 15:16:00 GMT
I´d really like to see the recreations amended so that the pie face disappears in the correct increments. Maybe we can get some of the Transdiffusion people contributing to this discussion too (where those recreations are on view)... This is a little difficult for me right now, as I can't get into my webspace at the moment and I'm getting no response from the guy who runs the server. I'll try and sort my recreations out though. The MHP guys know about this thread
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Post by lpmoderator on Jan 12, 2008 10:55:16 GMT
Thanks for that, Mulder. (This is Laurence Piper again, one of the moderators, I should be back under my usual "LP" log-in from now on). Be good if we can get the fine details of the pie chart sorted, if we can detrmine how frequently the bits disappeared.
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Post by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2008 13:27:56 GMT
Regarding normal network logos, the 'Batswing' disappeared in 1961 at latest (there is an example of BBC North using it that late, and the clock version was in use in 61 also); that was replaced from around October 1961 by the ident using a map of the UK within a circle; than in turn was replaced by the first globe on 30th September 1963 (there are off air recordings proving the exact date!).
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Post by lpmoderator on Jan 12, 2008 16:00:44 GMT
Thanks for that, Andrew. The map in the circle that you mention is what I was referring to as the first BBC globe. Do you know what is contained in the 24/9/57 "schools clock" recording referred to above or indeed if there are any existing PasB schools recordings from the mid '60s which may contain any fragments of the first version of the pie chart prior to the start of the programme?
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Post by johnstewart on Jan 19, 2008 17:04:45 GMT
I didn't know the early BBC schools pie chart existed - don't think when schools began - c. 1957? - there was a pie chart. There does seem to be a 'schools clock' listed on INFAX. The existing know 'pie' precedes an edtion of the apparently off air recorded series 'MATHS TODAY'. This dates from 1967 and has a percussive; glockenspiel and shaker theme music. This is the later version in which the whole clock design sudenly disappears to reveal the 'second hand' revolving. A few reconstructions have been posted on 'YouTube' but these seem to contrast what myself and Laurence Piper recall. In one I've recently seen there is a fade and dissolve of the segmented design; which I'm sure is completely wrong. The earlier 1964 - 66 used a cello theme. What I now recall of that version suggests that after 10 to 15 secs of music; one piece of the design suddenly disappeared to reveal the clock hand underneath. I think this clock hand was not in regular clock time; but 'jumped' every 3 seconds. When it eventually hit the next segment this would disappear. The 3 second lapse would explain why sometimes I looked away; and disappointed missed the next segment disappear. I calculate that it would have disappeared on the second of the three seconds; so in that moment looking away you might miss it. Ah, a topic close to my heart and i´d like to finally get the details correct for posterity! There are several recreations on the net which get the details completely and utterly wrong (which is very annoying as these have been presented as "fact" and so will be taken as such by all and sundry who don´t recall the era from personal experience). You´re right in that it´s thought that the pie chart began later than 1957 (thories vary as to when it was introduced although when I started watching around 1963 / 4, it was already in place). There is also a photo on the net of a monitor which seems to show a solar system picture with a BBC Schools logo superimposed, which seems to suggest a presentation style that pre-dates the pie chart. I also seem to recall an ´80s retrospective of some kind which showed a clip of the same graphic which was animated, showing a move across space to reveal the stars. I have no idea what´s on the 1957 recording that exists (can Andrew Martin enlighten us, I wonder? Are you reading this, Andrew?) but I very much doubt that it´s anything connected to the pie chart. Just to clarify / confirm your own memory, John, the earlier version (whether it´s the earliest of all is hard to say as it´s been suggested that the "BBC" ident in the corner MAY have had subtle variations to it - e.g. "BBC TV") in use up to 1967 was on 35mm film and had one minute of static chart followed by a second minute where chunks of the chart would gradually disappear to reveal a bit of the clockface beneath (with no hand on the clock). This is absolutely clear in my memory as I used to try and anticipate when the next chunk would disappear (and if you looked away from the screen at the wrong moment, you missed it!) This was accompanied by the cello piece. What i´m unclear about is how much disappeared at any one time - possibly it was five or ten second chunks although it could have been somewhere in between (each toned segment of the pie chart possibly disappearing in two halves). What is certain is that it did NOT disappear in one second increments or as a continuous wipe. Is there anyone else out there who also remembers the early pie chart first-hand that can provide more detail on how large each disappearing chunk was? During my posting I was pondering about the 'clock' format. What you describe prompts memory of a series of white squares like those that appeared between 'Rediffusion adverts; around the perimeter. Were these static or did they appear one by one? I have a vague feeling that the patterned segments may have disappeared in irregularly shaped segments; mathematically divided now. This may be wrong; but the type of thing would be the first disappearing with 3 patterned segments in a chunk; the next chunk two; the next 1. Does this make sense?
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Post by markdrag on Jan 19, 2008 18:50:50 GMT
Hi all Jumping on a few years, there's a sound recording of a complete 'Tune For Lucy' along with a flash recreation of the 70's blue and yellow diamond at the following address: www.j-one.co.uk/mulder/presheaven/I think a pie chart recreation (before my time) is on there too. Keep the faith Mark D
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Post by A.Doe on Jan 20, 2008 2:29:06 GMT
Hi all Jumping on a few years, there's a sound recording of a complete 'Tune For Lucy' along with a flash recreation of the 70's blue and yellow diamond at the following address: www.j-one.co.uk/mulder/presheaven/I think a pie chart recreation (before my time) is on there too. Keep the faith Mark D Yes, that's my site, although it won't be online for much longer I think. I can no longer access the server to upload anything, and they guy running the server has said he's not bothering anymore, so he's letting it run dry. I have a YouTube page at www.presheaven.co.uk though, which you might find interesting. 'A Tune For Lucy' is a name given to that piece which was previously untitled. Lucy is the lady who restored the audio from the master tape for the CD compilation 'Natural Born Fillers', as far as I know. The CD isn't available anymore though.
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Post by Stephen Doran on Jan 20, 2008 11:20:11 GMT
Lucy Reeve is the lady.
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Post by johnstewart on Jan 28, 2008 17:51:00 GMT
Are there any updates on whether anyone thinks I was correct about the different sized segments?
Basically I mean the larger segments would include more than one pattern; the smaller just one patterned segment.
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Post by A.Doe on Dec 16, 2008 18:16:19 GMT
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Post by markboulton on Jan 2, 2009 0:04:43 GMT
I've always found this debate fascinating, particularly as, to date, no hard-and-fast evidence to quell the debate has ever been transmitted or slipped into less official channels for our delectation.
What I always like to do though, and have proven to be adept at making pretty sound guesses in the past, is think like a detective in terms of (a) what would be most likely to 'work' and (b) what would have been operationally the easiest thing to do, my interpretation of how the schools pie would have operated in its first guise is as follows:
- Vision mixer initially set to a telecine slide scanner. 6 slides are mounted (in alternating scanners), of the pie - first with all segments, then with each subsequent segment missing. I can't help thinking the segments DID disappear in the pattern-by-pattern chunks and not in halves/pairs as has been suggested
- That the pie (with chunks missing) artwork would have the clock face but NO hand
- That at the 60 second point, the vision mix would crossfade from the slide scanner (showing the 'one chunk of pie left' plus clock face without hand) to the mechanical clock (i.e. with hand) relayed live from camera.
I even suspect that, had viewers been particularly observant, they may even have noticed the mis-registration between the slide clock face and the live clock face.
I would go further to say that I would expect that the live clock was actually started off with 2 minutes to go, and the vision mixer (as in the person) would look at this to determine when to trigger the slide change. Eventually, as the clock got to the top again, the VM would take this as the cue to mix from pie slide TO the clock.
I would then venture further that this practice was stopped when perhaps at one point the Pres area for some reason lost access to a twin-mag slide scanner and had to make do with only being able to scan one slide at once (otherwise a nasty on-screen 'flip' would be seen as the single-mag advanced from one slide to another). Or maybe one of the slides was damaged, who knows. But perhaps it was simply seen as simpler to stay on the one slide. Or perhaps at some point when the type of twin-mag slide scanner was changed it was noted that each mag exhibited poor registration in relation to each other, and it was felt that the on-screen slippage looked cheap. You can see the same effect on 'page turn' credit sequences from the 1970s, such as many Series 1 episodes of "Fawlty Towers" for example, where every alternate credit 'page' is at a wonky angle. The same could be said for every other promo slide on BBC1 and 2.
I think the fact that the practice changed at some point (1967?) strongly suggests that the 'animated' pie was on slides rather than film, as otherwise it would have been just as easy to retain the film all the way to 1972/3, which as we know didn't happen.
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