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Post by maxstenner on Oct 22, 2021 13:23:37 GMT
I know that Feast of Steven is probably lost forever but what other stories/episodes have an incredibly low chance of being found?
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Post by John Wall on Oct 22, 2021 13:31:36 GMT
Anything that was telerecorded could turn up. After all we have three episodes of Masterplan.
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Post by richardwoods on Oct 22, 2021 14:40:16 GMT
I know that Feast of Steven is probably lost forever but what other stories/episodes have an incredibly low chance of being found? “I know” is perhaps putting it too strongly. “It is likely” is probably more accurate. I believe from discussion on here & other places that there is some debate that a telerecording MAY have been taken but as copies were never sold it remains incredibly unlikely to have survived. |
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Post by Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy on Oct 22, 2021 16:31:23 GMT
That's a difficult question to answer.
It's easy to look at the list of countries that aired Doctor Who and determine Season 1 and 2 would be more likely than Season 3 or 4. Yet we find episodes like Airlock, Masterplan 2, Underwater Menace 2 ... and still not a single clip of Marco Polo.
I believe this is likely because despite the number of airings Marco Polo had, it's still a small enough number for luck and bad luck to intervene. How many copies were made for Marco Polo? How many of those copies were bicycled to the next country? And what are the fates of each copy?
Episodes were destroyed when no longer needed, and several of the episodes we have found were scheduled to be destroyed. It's pure luck episodes left on the skip to be destroyed were saved.
It could likely be Marco Polo has a 0% chance of survival, yet Masterplan and Galaxy 4 have a higher chance because circumstantial evidence suggests copies of those episodes were let loose into the collector's circuit. That might actually be the scenario we face.
Point being we really have NO idea how to quantify the percent chance of survival for each story. We can point to things like the number of airings, the proven destruction of copies, the episodes we have found ... but we just don't know. We could discover Feast of Steven tomorrow, and never see Reign of Terror 5 ... or we could get all of Season 1 suddenly and discover the last copy of Power of the Daleks was indeed destroyed.
Only time will tell.
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Post by Jaspal Cheema on Oct 23, 2021 19:56:08 GMT
What is the liklihood,if any of something being 'gifted' for Dr Who's 60th anniversary...?Marco Polo perhaps?And although I haven't read it yet,but have been reliably informed-what do members make of DWM editor Marcus Hearn's tirade about NOTHING ever turning up and especially not Marco Polo in the latest issue of DWM?Some sort of clue about recoveries but using absolutes to bring their existence into sharp relief?Surely his first commitment is to the upcoming new series...?
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Post by Richard Bignell on Oct 23, 2021 21:22:51 GMT
There is no tirade, Jaspal. There is a joke, but no tirade.
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Post by Richard Bignell on Oct 23, 2021 21:32:35 GMT
I know that Feast of Steven is probably lost forever but what other stories/episodes have an incredibly low chance of being found? “I know” is perhaps putting it too strongly. “It is likely” is probably more accurate. I believe from discussion on here & other places that there is some debate that a telerecording MAY have been taken but as copies were never sold it remains incredibly unlikely to have survived. I don’t there’s any likelihood that it was ever film recorded (not telerecorded, as that term is equally used for video recording the original episode). Film recordings were only ever made to specific order that had to be signed off in advance by several different people. Given that both the production office and Enterprises knew before it was even made that Feast wouldn’t make up part of any overseas sale, there would have been no point in Enterprises requesting and paying for a film recording to be made that they were never going to use. |
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Post by Jon Preddle on Oct 23, 2021 21:45:30 GMT
As I've said many times before, the number of prints struck of an episode has ZERO bearing on its chances of survival.
To meet the bicycling demands, there were probably no more than 10 copies made of the first 26 episodes of season 1, probably no more than 7 of the rest of season 1 and season 2, and probably no more than 3 for the bulk of seasons 3 to 6 (of course, even fewer prints were made of MTTU and TDMP, Tenth Planet, Power, Evil and Tomb).
S1 (a) 26 x 10 = 260
S1 (b) 16 x 7 = 112
S2 39 x 7 = 273
S3 32 x 3 = 96 {not taking into account MTTU and TDMP}
S4 43 x 3 = 129 {not factoring in fewer prints of TTP and TPOTD}
S5 40 x 3 = 120
S6 44 x 3 = 132
That's somewhere in the region of 1120 film prints made of seasons 1 to 6.
But out of those, only around 150 broadcast prints have turned up - some 13% - mostly all being orphans, only a handful of complete stories.
And the number of episodes for which multiple copies have turned up is less than 15.
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Post by andyeves on Oct 24, 2021 13:34:09 GMT
What is the liklihood,if any of something being 'gifted' for Dr Who's 60th anniversary...?Marco Polo perhaps? During the run-up to the 50th anniversary, there was a great deal of expectation & anticipation that the BBC would use the event to announce a haul of returned episodes. No doubt it will be the same for the 60th too ... |
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Post by Jaspal Cheema on Oct 24, 2021 16:04:18 GMT
What is the liklihood,if any of something being 'gifted' for Dr Who's 60th anniversary...?Marco Polo perhaps? During the run-up to the 50th anniversary, there was a great deal of expectation & anticipation that the BBC would use the event to announce a haul of returned episodes. No doubt it will be the same for the 60th too ... Hope so Andy,but it might just be a release of a significant animation such as Master Plan which would be considered a prestige 60th anniversary release-not it's age obviously but just something to satisfy the fans.On the other hand...weren't Web and Enemy in the hands of PM for at least 5 years before their announcement?So something special may still be revealed. |
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Post by richardwoods on Oct 24, 2021 17:09:49 GMT
“I know” is perhaps putting it too strongly. “It is likely” is probably more accurate. I believe from discussion on here & other places that there is some debate that a telerecording MAY have been taken but as copies were never sold it remains incredibly unlikely to have survived. I don’t there’s any likelihood that it was ever film recorded (not telerecorded, as that term is equally used for video recording the original episode). Film recordings were only ever made to specific order that had to be signed off in advance by several different people. Given that both the production office and Enterprises knew before it was even made that Feast wouldn’t make up part of any overseas sale, there would have been no point in Enterprises requesting and paying for a film recording to be made that they were never going to use. I believe someone who was involved in the production of FoS was interviewed and said that he thought a 16mm copy was taken (don’t ask me why / where or who), but I have a feeling it was quoted on this forum long ago. I accept that the likelihood is that this person was mistaken but it does make it a case of extremely unlikely rather than it definitely wasn’t. |
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Post by Richard Bignell on Oct 24, 2021 18:02:12 GMT
To be fair, a vague memory of something that an unknown someone might or might not have been said on a forum really isn't really a basis for concluding anything. I've certainly not seen anything on here resembling any such statement or indeed anywhere else.
Given that no one involved with the original production (barring the producer) would have had the first idea if Enterprises had made any film recording of the episode in the first place, such a claim is extremely unlikely.
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Post by richardwoods on Oct 24, 2021 18:21:47 GMT
To be fair, a vague memory of something that an unknown someone might or might not have been said on a forum really isn't really a basis for concluding anything. I've certainly not seen anything on here resembling any such statement or indeed anywhere else. Given that no one involved with the original production (barring the producer) would have had the first idea if Enterprises had made any film recording of the episode in the first place, such a claim is extremely unlikely. In fairness if you read what I’ve posted I essentially agree with you. I quite agree that whoever was claiming that a 16mm copy was made could well be mistaken, as we are all aware on here there’s been so much rubbish written about the missing episodes over the years, but it doesn’t mean it categorically didn’t happen however unlikely it would seem. There was also a myth about a copy being made for Bill Hartnell to watch at home I seem to remember. |
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Post by John Wall on Oct 24, 2021 18:54:39 GMT
During the run-up to the 50th anniversary, there was a great deal of expectation & anticipation that the BBC would use the event to announce a haul of returned episodes. No doubt it will be the same for the 60th too ... Hope so Andy,but it might just be a release of a significant animation such as Master Plan which would be considered a prestige 60th anniversary release-not it's age obviously but just something to satisfy the fans.On the other hand...weren't Web and Enemy in the hands of PM for at least 5 years before their announcement?So something special may still be revealed. There’s nothing to suggest that long although the details we’ve had over the years have been somewhat vague and contradictory. About the only thing we know for certain is that when he first got to Jos WOF3 was there but when he’d finished fighting Nigerian red tape it’d gone. As to when he first got to Jos…..Maybe as early as late 2011 - but I’m not sure I’m on my way to Ladbrokes!! |
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Post by Tim Burrows on Oct 26, 2021 13:15:59 GMT
As I've said many times before, the number of prints struck of an episode has ZERO bearing on its chances of survival. To meet the bicycling demands, there were probably no more than 10 copies made of the first 26 episodes of season 1, probably no more than 7 of the rest of season 1 and season 2, and probably no more than 3 for the bulk of seasons 3 to 6 (of course, even fewer prints were made of MTTU and TDMP, Tenth Planet, Power, Evil and Tomb). S1 (a) 26 x 10 = 260 S1 (b) 16 x 7 = 112 S2 39 x 7 = 273 S3 32 x 3 = 96 {not taking into account MTTU and TDMP} S4 43 x 3 = 129 {not factoring in fewer prints of TTP and TPOTD} S5 40 x 3 = 120 S6 44 x 3 = 132 That's somewhere in the region of 1120 film prints made of seasons 1 to 6. But out of those, only around 150 broadcast prints have turned up - some 13% - mostly all being orphans, only a handful of complete stories. And the number of episodes for which multiple copies have turned up is less than 15. That's a sobering statistic. It speaks rather well to the efficiency of the BBC junking process. |
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