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Post by Vaughan Stanger on Aug 18, 2021 19:05:13 GMT
IIRC Phil stated that at least six MEs were in the hands of film collectors. That would rule out the Iran episodes, if they still exist, which I doubt. (And even if they do, the political changes required to make them accessible boggle the mind.) What interests me rather more is whether Phil has included the pair of Hartnells that Paul knows about in his total, also whether Web 3 is one of the six. If not, then there could be nine MEs that might be returned. Perhaps that's where the "at least" bit of his statement comes from. I get the impression he believes Web 3 is in the hands of a Doctor Who fan, which sounds rather far-fetched to me. Anyway, there are a good few questions I hope DWM (or someone!) will ask Phil at some point, without requiring him to reveal details that should remain private. Individuals can sometimes forge relationships where state to state relationships are completely out of the question, so never say never True, but the Iranian regime disparages Western culture in all its forms, holds joint Iranian-British nationals in jail on trumped up charges, and claims (with justification) that the UK owes it a lot of money from a paid-for but never delivered armoured vehicles purchase in the 1970s. If a private individual, or a state employee like an archivist, say, was found to be have had unauthorised contact with someone in the UK, I suspect they would be in a lot of trouble. It is a brutal, despotic regime. The Iranian people deserve better. If they ever get it, that would be the time to try. Some years ago, official contacts (archive to archive) failed to yield a positive result. Let's hope that at some point a definitive search can be undertaken.
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Post by John Wall on Aug 18, 2021 20:08:19 GMT
I wonder if Iran is included in the half dozen? Not a good part of the world to go ME hunting though……. IIRC Phil stated that at least six MEs were in the hands of film collectors. That would rule out the Iran episodes, if they still exist, which I doubt. (And even if they do, the political changes required to make them accessible boggle the mind.) What interests me rather more is whether Phil has included the pair of Hartnells that Paul knows about in his total, also whether Web 3 is one of the six. If not, then there could be nine MEs that might be returned. Perhaps that's where the "at least" bit of his statement comes from. I get the impression he believes Web 3 is in the hands of a Doctor Who fan, which sounds rather far-fetched to me. Anyway, there are a good few questions I hope DWM (or someone!) will ask Phil at some point, without requiring him to reveal details that should remain private. The even numbers are interesting 👍 That’s because the orphan episodes, of the ‘75 Australian vintage 🍷🍸, seem to have returned in pairs. At the risk of sounding like a stuck gramophone they’re like Krynoid pods. I’ve previously speculated that they were “liberated” from the destruction pile by someone, singular or plural, who had a briefcase or similar that could hold a couple of 16mm cans. There’s, of course, no fundamental reason why this receptacle couldn’t have held more except that the prints have generally come back in pairs. I think that there were multiple light fingered Larrys for two reasons. The first is that the previous recoveries have been in pairs, one person “acquiring” several batches could’ve consolidated them. The second is the length of the window of opportunity, how long did a pile of cans sit there before being destroyed? I don’t know the answer to that but it’s probably better to assume it was short rather than long although a first hand source from the era could help. If, for example, cans were just piled up until a particular person was available or there was a destruction schedule - say once per week - then there’s a greater possibility of survivals than if prints were generally destroyed on arrival. Another point I’ve made before is have the unreturned MEs been verified as missing? Has PV or whoever physically verified or seen unambiguous proof that what’s claimed actually exists? Some years ago PV took a trip “oop north” iirc to see a Dr Who print. He was sceptical but went anyway. It turned out to be Dr Who - an episode of the Romans!
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Post by gbaker on Aug 18, 2021 21:24:05 GMT
Please forgive me if this kind of thread is not allowed on this forum, I'm new and I don't have much experience here. What episodes do you genuinely and realistically think are out there? Personally, I think Masterplan 4, Tenth Planet 4, and Web 3 are more than likely still in existence. What are your opinions?
Well the first two of those episodes were labelled to be the `most likely to exist' in Dr Who Bulletin well over thirty years ago. It remains to be seen if your third `more than likely' turns up or is filed in the same category as the Blue Peter episodes. Talking of good ol' Dr Who Bulletin back then, I seem to remember a claim that Power 2 and Evil 3 existed in private hands - we can only hope that this is rooted in fact. Hardly anyone believed the claim that Evil 2 and Faceless Ones 3 existed until they were shown at an event. I also read somewhere that a BBC employee had an attic full of salvaged tapes (not necessarily Doctor Who). What we really need is someone like Sherlock Holmes or D.I. Jack Regan to trawl through the list of BBC employees back in the 70's, trace their children and ask to have a look in their attics!
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Post by John Wall on Aug 19, 2021 14:26:58 GMT
Here’s the list of what was returned in 1975 missingepisodes.proboards.com/thread/7782?page=14#198The Space Museum The Chase The Time Meddler Galaxy Four The Myth Makers The Ark The Smugglers The Tenth Planet The Power of the Daleks The Underwater Menace The Moonbase The Faceless Ones The Evil of the Daleks The Tomb of the Cybermen The Abominable Snowmen The Ice Warriors The Enemy of the World The Web of Fear The Dominators The Mind Robber The Invasion The Seeds of Death The Space Pirates The War Games This is the batch from which things like Airlock and UM2 came from. There’s some mouth watering possibilities there.
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Post by John Wall on Aug 19, 2021 14:45:45 GMT
This is an edited list of those stories which have one or more episodes missing:
Galaxy Four The Myth Makers The Smugglers The Tenth Planet The Power of the Daleks The Underwater Menace The Moonbase The Faceless Ones The Evil of the Daleks The Abominable Snowmen The Ice Warriors The Web of Fear The Invasion The Space Pirates
If there are two Hartnell MEs out there that were “acquired” from this batch then they’re from:
Galaxy Four The Myth Makers The Smugglers The Tenth Planet
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Post by John Wall on Aug 19, 2021 16:26:56 GMT
OK, let’s take it a step further.
I’m assuming that the two Hartnells exist and have been verified as not being in the archive and came from the Australian returns.
As Airlock came from that source it must have been on the top of the pile when it was “acquired”. It’s possible that cans from a particular story could’ve been together so there could be another episode of Galaxy 4.
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Post by Jaspal Cheema on Aug 21, 2021 20:25:18 GMT
In the new DWM,Jeremy Bentham is reported as keeping an eye on prints sent to the Royal Navy.How feasible is it that organisations such as the armed forces would have kept old 16mm film prints of B/W episodes...of any sort?Any evidence that film prints of any series has been recovered this way?
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Post by John Wall on Aug 21, 2021 22:38:49 GMT
In the new DWM,Jeremy Bentham is reported as keeping an eye on prints sent to the Royal Navy.How feasible is it that organisations such as the armed forces would have kept old 16mm film prints of B/W episodes...of any sort?Any evidence that film prints of any series has been recovered this way? Hello Sailor! A few years ago there was a possibility that DW had been shown to US forces in the Far East but nothing came of it. I don’t think there’s any reason why DW shouldn’t have been shown to the senior service but where and when? We pulled out of east of Suez in 1967 although Hong Kong was British until 1997 and we still have a presence on Cyprus. The forces tended to have their own newspapers, etc so if, for example, things were shown in Cyprus or Hong Kong there should be a record. Additionally, for those on things like Facebook there are probably pages where ex service personnel can be found. The question is worth asking imho.
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Post by John Wall on Aug 21, 2021 22:40:20 GMT
There’s also BAOR - British Army On the Rhine.
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Post by Richard Marple on Aug 22, 2021 10:36:04 GMT
When did the British Forces TV service start up?
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Post by richardfitzgerald on Aug 22, 2021 11:09:47 GMT
In the new DWM,Jeremy Bentham is reported as keeping an eye on prints sent to the Royal Navy.How feasible is it that organisations such as the armed forces would have kept old 16mm film prints of B/W episodes...of any sort?Any evidence that film prints of any series has been recovered this way? Overseas embassies would be a thought, assuming stuff from "home" would be sent out to entertain the families etc. There was an established film distribution service for the merchant navy owned by a subsidiary of Rediffusion operating from the 60s onwards.
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Post by John Wall on Aug 22, 2021 11:37:29 GMT
Some interesting information.
Thinking it through it’s most likely to be where troops were garrisoned abroad and English wasn’t the first language.
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Aug 22, 2021 16:36:53 GMT
Has PV or whoever physically verified or seen unambiguous proof that what’s claimed actually exists? Some years ago PV took a trip “oop north” iirc to see a Dr Who print. He was sceptical but went anyway. It turned out to be Dr Who - an episode of the Romans! Actually, I wasn't sceptical. I asked for some evidence that would make a trip worthwhile, which was sent to me, followed by a phone call. The location was in fact 'down south but it was indeed the episode 'Conspiracy. Paul
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Aug 22, 2021 16:46:53 GMT
I seem to remember a claim that Power 2 and Evil 3 existed in private hands - we can only hope that this is rooted in fact. Hardly anyone believed the claim that Evil 2 and Faceless Ones 3 existed until they were shown at an event. I also read somewhere that a BBC employee had an attic full of salvaged tapes (not necessarily Doctor Who). I think more people believed that Power 2 and Evil 3 existed than those who believed the claim of Evil 2 and Faceless Ones 3. I never gave the former any credence, but what little I was told about Evil 2 and Faceless Ones 3 in Brighton in 1985 was enough to convince me that the episodes were indeed at the cinema in question that very day. I am still mystified why those that were contacted officially that day assumed it was a scam. 15 months later myself and Michael Smallman introduced the screening of one of the films at the event you mention, TellyCon. The attic story is true; that collection is now in the hands of a private collector, but the BBC have access to it. Some of it is back at the BBC and has been released commercially. Paul
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Post by cjones on Aug 22, 2021 17:04:19 GMT
I didn't know about the former BBC employee with an attic full of tapes; that's good to know.
Paul, I wonder if you might be able to settle - or at least throw some light on - the possibility of missing episodes being returned in unusable condition. Back in 2013, the messaging on some forums (not this one) was that Enemy Of The World, Web of Fear, and Marco Polo were due to be returned, and I can't have been the only one struck by the fact that two of those three did indeed turn up a month or two later. Was it the case that prints of some episodes of MP were found, but were so vinegary/damaged that they were beyond salvaging?
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