Origin of the pseudo historical?

[John Wall]

Dr Who has frequently, and to good effect, ‘borrowed” from various sources.

The historical was a regular feature of the early years, the travellers arrive in Earth’s past and encounter real scenarios and personages from history. They survive using their wits and knowledge of history. There are a number of antecedents from which this is derived.

In Season Two, however, is “The Time Meddler” which has a genuine historical scenario, northern England in the summer of 1066, but with the introduction of a sci fi element, the Meddling Monk, with futuristic/alien technology.

My question is, your starter for ten - no conferring, are there any precedents before 1965 for this sort of story?

This isn’t any sort of a trick, I don’t know the answer!

[RWels]

A few in books, no doubt.

[John Wall]

Feb 18, 2021 22:43:58 GMT RWels said:

A few in books, no doubt.

I’ve read quite a lot of sci fi in my time and don’t recall any, but there’s a lot of knowledge here 👍

[RWels]

Do you mean specifically the fact that the Monk is blatantly using technology (the Doctor is technically there by technology too but isn't openly using it); or the aspect that an alternate time line might form that has to be prevented?

[John Wall]

Feb 18, 2021 23:00:50 GMT RWels said:

Do you mean specifically the fact that the Monk is blatantly using technology (the Doctor is technically there by technology too but isn't openly using it); or the aspect that an alternate time line might form that has to be prevented?

It’s the introduction of sci fi elements into the historical scenario.

Think of things like Marco Polo, the Aztecs, the Romans, etc - the TARDIS delivers them to the historical setting and removes them at the end, but there are no sci fi elements between those.

[RWels]

I have never read A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court but it might go in the right direction.

There are also comic examples that have their roots in spoofs of epic movies. I mean broadly speaking along the lines of The Flintstones.

Most of these are mixing the present (or their present, anyway) with history. So not quite SF yet.
But following Wells' The Time Machine, I'd be surprised if there was no follow up extending the concept into future meeting past.

[John Wall]

Feb 19, 2021 9:27:18 GMT RWels said:

I have never read A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court but it might go in the right direction.

There are also comic examples that have their roots in spoofs of epic movies. I mean broadly speaking along the lines of The Flintstones.

Most of these are mixing the present (or their present, anyway) with history. So not quite SF yet.
But following Wells' The Time Machine, I'd be surprised if there was no follow up extending the concept into future meeting past.

That was a thought of mine but I’d see that as a historical, not a pseudo historical.

There’s a 1940s sci fi film - can’t recall the name - that’s been on TPTV where the characters get transported back to, iirc, Elizabethan times in a spherical time machine but it’s more historical than pseudo historical.

[RWels]

In what way is it pseudohistorical? Sure, there is anachronistic technology, but that is what the story is about.

Steampunk, that seems pseudohistorical to me.

[John Wall]

Feb 19, 2021 11:05:49 GMT RWels said:

In what way is it pseudohistorical? Sure, there is anachronistic technology, but that is what the story is about.

Steampunk, that seems pseudohistorical to me.

I’m talking about things that predate “The Time Meddler” and that could have inspired it.

[RWels]

Obviously, that's what you already said. But everyone might have a different idea of what the meaning is of "pseudohistorical". Do you see it as different from the historicals because the Monk uses technology that is totally out of place?

You might take this up with tvtropes in their discussion section, but they're so overengineered that it's sometimes a hard act to follow.

[John Wall]

Feb 19, 2021 11:46:23 GMT RWels said:

Obviously, that's what you already said. But everyone might have a different idea of what the meaning is of "pseudohistorical". Do you see it as different from the historicals because the Monk uses technology that is totally out of place?

You might take this up with tvtropes in their discussion section, but they're so overengineered that it's sometimes a hard act to follow.

Pseudo historical is an established term within Dr Who and in addition to things like the Time Meddler it can be later seen in things like Time Warrior.

The (true) historicals are things like the Aztecs or go forward to Black Orchid.

I, and I don’t think I’m unique, see them as separate/different genres, or at least sub genres.

What I’m wondering is if Dr Who actually invented this?

[RWels]

I'm not sure it's a universal name because it can still be slightly ambiguous. Inside DW circles, it might be more natural to call it that while automatically leaving aside the title character. (But what would you call "Back to the future" then?)


You might ask in a few other places - TV tropes or perhaps also the MC for the older generation. One or two American/international boards that are strong on older pop culture.

I suppose, if anything, then there might be some American program prior to 1965, possibly some anthology series...? Something that is now forgotten by most? But yeah it could also be that DW pioneered this.

[Vaughan Stanger]

Feb 18, 2021 22:08:14 GMT John Wall said:

Dr Who has frequently, and to good effect, ‘borrowed” from various sources.

The historical was a regular feature of the early years, the travellers arrive in Earth’s past and encounter real scenarios and personages from history. They survive using their wits and knowledge of history. There are a number of antecedents from which this is derived.

In Season Two, however, is “The Time Meddler” which has a genuine historical scenario, northern England in the summer of 1066, but with the introduction of a sci fi element, the Meddling Monk, with futuristic/alien technology.

My question is, your starter for ten - no conferring, are there any precedents before 1965 for this sort of story?

This isn’t any sort of a trick, I don’t know the answer!

One book that springs to mind as a point of comparison is 'Lest Darkness Falls' by L. Sprague de Camp (short story 1939, novel 1941). In it, a character accidentally travels back to post-Imperial era Rome and "invents" technology he knows about. Ultimately his actions cause the timeline to diverge from our history. It's quite well known, hence plausible that Dennis Spooner knew of it. (For more details: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lest_Darkness_Fall)

[RWels]

There were also SF shows that we know very little about, because several episodes are completely lost, such as OOTU or this.
Although I wouldn't normally expect them to leave their genre to do anything else than SF.

[John Wall]

Feb 19, 2021 14:59:46 GMT Vaughan Stanger said:

Feb 18, 2021 22:08:14 GMT John Wall said:

Dr Who has frequently, and to good effect, ‘borrowed” from various sources.

The historical was a regular feature of the early years, the travellers arrive in Earth’s past and encounter real scenarios and personages from history. They survive using their wits and knowledge of history. There are a number of antecedents from which this is derived.

In Season Two, however, is “The Time Meddler” which has a genuine historical scenario, northern England in the summer of 1066, but with the introduction of a sci fi element, the Meddling Monk, with futuristic/alien technology.

My question is, your starter for ten - no conferring, are there any precedents before 1965 for this sort of story?

This isn’t any sort of a trick, I don’t know the answer!

One book that springs to mind as a point of comparison is 'Lest Darkness Falls' by L. Sprague de Camp (short story 1939, novel 1941). In it, a character accidentally travels back to post-Imperial era Rome and "invents" technology he knows about. Ultimately his actions cause the timeline to diverge from our history. It's quite well known, hence plausible that Dennis Spooner knew of it. (For more details: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lest_Darkness_Fall)

Thanks 👍 That’s extremely promising. Perhaps there’s the making of a featurette for Time Meddler SE?