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Post by Richard Bignell on Aug 20, 2021 12:16:41 GMT
It's not disingenous in the slightest. As is always the case, the people that express disatisfaction are a relatively small group, a number of which who post the same thing in multiple forums. There are also quite a number around who have indicated that they think the animation is fine and shows good future promise.
And yes, there have already been moans about the brief 12 seconds worth of "very high standard" animation in the Evil trailer. "Why are Jamie's eyes completely different sizes?" "Why his Jamie's head so static when his neck is bouncing up and down?" etc.
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Post by richardwoods on Aug 20, 2021 12:28:36 GMT
It's not disingenous in the slightest. As is always the case, the people that express disatisfaction are a relatively small group, a number of which who post the same thing in multiple forums. There are also quite a number around who have indicated that they think the animation is fine and shows good future promise. And yes, there have already been moans about the brief 12 seconds worth of "very high standard" animation in the Evil trailer. "Why are Jamie's eyes completely different sizes?" "Why his Jamie's head so static when his neck is bouncing up and down?" etc. As is best in civilised debate we will have to agree to differ. š
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Richard Develyn
Member
Living in hope that more missing episodes will come back to us.
Posts: 574
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Post by Richard Develyn on Aug 20, 2021 12:53:22 GMT
It's not disingenous in the slightest. As is always the case, the people that express disatisfaction are a relatively small group, a number of which who post the same thing in multiple forums. There are also quite a number around who have indicated that they think the animation is fine and shows good future promise. And yes, there have already been moans about the brief 12 seconds worth of "very high standard" animation in the Evil trailer. "Why are Jamie's eyes completely different sizes?" "Why his Jamie's head so static when his neck is bouncing up and down?" etc. Let me have a brief optimistic moment that when all these experiments in animation are completed, we will go back and use the best techniques we've discovered and developed and re-do the whole lot of them in the best possible way. Richard
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Post by RhysH on Aug 20, 2021 13:57:34 GMT
After a busy week at work, I finally watched the first 3 episodes over an extended lunch break. Personally I did not find the animation overly distracting after watching the first 2 episodes.
Constructive feedback would be that the eyes are just a little off (the best characters were those with glasses, Prof Travers and Harold Chorley, plus The Doctor himself with those awesomely expressive eyebrows), and Victoria was also not quite right - seemed to have an oddly wide face and standing a bit awkwardly in a bit of a stoop in places. Everything else was just fine for me. Very creative use of lighting on their faces when the briefing is going on and the Yeti in particular looked strong as you would expect.
Tightening up those bits, I have no problem with more of the same thank you very much. And I think the approach would be different for stories where there is more than 1 episode missing - they seemed to be really emphasizing this point in the interviews, not wanting it to be such a change compared to the recent releases where the majority (if not all) episodes were animated.
Make of that what you will, but works for me and if you really are against it, well we all have our fingers crossed that Phil manages to track down that elusive episode that he says was stolen away.
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Post by nathangeorge on Aug 20, 2021 18:22:50 GMT
I said I wouldn't buy this release months ago, before the current furore over the animation. I still think WoF should have been paired with Underwater Menace for re-release. I would have bought that, unappealing animation and all.
Regarding the animation itself; I assumed it had been done in that very particular style for cost reasons. To me it simply highlights the downward trend in the quality of the animated releases, starting with The Invasion to the current. But that's my opinion, the style of this animation is just not to my taste, regardless of the reasons behind it, which I'm sure were honourable. I would not buy any fully animated release in this style and being something of a purist, I like the black and white animations, would think very carefully about buying a future release with no b&w option.
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Post by Richard Bignell on Aug 20, 2021 19:07:51 GMT
Itās in 4:3 b/w. The widescreen colour version is an additional option.
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Post by Robert Lia on Aug 20, 2021 21:32:58 GMT
Heck if they actually get stupid enough at the BBC to stop offering the black and white option on future animations I would as a last resort simply turn down the color on the TV when I watch. I would not boycott the animations or go on an on line rant about it.
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Post by mattg on Aug 20, 2021 23:05:35 GMT
I havenāt seen it but perhaps itās something that can be fine tuned? Let's face it, without exception, every single animation has been very vocally criticised from one sector of fandom or another - this isn't right, that looks terrible, I don't like this or that, so the similar reaction to this one is not surprising in the least. Evil will be exactly the same next month. ā¦itās almost as if the archetypal fan exhibits a raw, unadulterated passion for their interests, passion that compels them to proffer both effusive praise and criticism /disappointment - the latter typically for a newly released product considered to be of dubious or substandard quality. Not quite sure why some canāt accept this simple concept really. Itās also worth noting that many of those not exactly performing cartwheels of unbridled joy for this somewhat ādivisiveā Webā release can also be found acclaiming past animations, enthusing over the upcoming Evil of the Daleks as well as future āCollection Blu Ray instalmentsā¦ ^Not quite the motley gaggle of unrelenting ingrates, serial whingers and voracious complainants some disingenuously dismiss fandom as then.
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Post by richardwoods on Aug 21, 2021 10:21:42 GMT
Constructive criticism clearly isnāt welcome in some quarters. How much easier to blame āfandomā.
Itās much easier, but ultimately self defeating to blame āpotential customersā for getting it wrong for reasons that should be clear to all. š
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Post by mattg on Aug 21, 2021 11:38:20 GMT
Constructive criticism clearly isnāt welcome in some quarters. How much easier to blame āfandomā. Itās much easier, but ultimately self defeating to blame the ācustomersā for getting it wrong for reasons that should be clear to all. š Alas some seem determined to conflate fan criticism with fan entitlement, a charge that, though admittedly not entirely without veracity on occasion, is still unjustly pronounced more often than not. Regardless, the core dynamic existent between merchant and customer always remains: soliciting peopleās money invariably solicits their opinions as well. And those opinions are, as we know, not always dripping with boundless praise. Such is life. Back on topic: having wavered on buying Webā (again) and now consider othersā impressionsā¦I think Iāll pass. Seems like a bit of cynical cash-in really with new features hardly deserving of itās Ā£30 (for the Ltd Ed at least) price tag. Still, the upcoming Evil of the Daleks animation looks promising though!
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Post by richardwoods on Aug 21, 2021 14:38:20 GMT
Constructive criticism clearly isnāt welcome in some quarters. How much easier to blame āfandomā. Itās much easier, but ultimately self defeating to blame the ācustomersā for getting it wrong for reasons that should be clear to all. š Alas some seem determined to conflate fan criticism with fan entitlement, a charge that, though admittedly not entirely without veracity on occasion, is still unjustly pronounced more often than not. Regardless, the core dynamic existent between merchant and customer always remains: soliciting peopleās money invariably solicits their opinions as well. And those opinions are, as we know, not always dripping with boundless praise. Such is life. Back on topic: having wavered on buying Webā (again) and now consider othersā impressionsā¦I think Iāll pass. Seems like a bit of cynical cash-in really with new features hardly deserving of itās Ā£30 (for the Ltd Ed at least) price tag. Still, the upcoming Evil of the Daleks animation looks promising though!Indeed it does. Canāt wait to see it again & compare it to my memories of the original.
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Post by timmunton on Aug 21, 2021 14:58:51 GMT
If you blame the fans for, in this case, a quite reasonable opinion & vigorously defend this animation style what next? Saying it was all well & good that the BBC destroyed the episodes in the first place? (after all they had a legal right to do so!). I exaggerate of course - it's unlikely anyone would go that far.
There is a difference between relatively minor criticism of things like eg. the arm movements in Fury & what's going on here with the Web animation where it's not just one or two aspects which are poor but almost the whole look & feel of it. Not quite all - eg. the sets look good. The next worst animation imo is Reign Of Terror & despite its faults that one is many, many times better than the Web animation. Reign is still sort of watchable despite its limitations.
Having viewed the entire Web animated episode now, it really is dire. The characters all have unnaturally stiff backs while also stooping over very awkwardly & artificially when moving. Their motion is like that of string puppets eg. the Woodentops of Watch With Mother fame - especially re. the upper body. Arm motion in general is weird & unnatural. It's hard to see how motion capture (if by that something akin to rotoscoping is meant) was used given this mainly awkward use of movement. I felt almost slightly queasy after finishing it like I'd been put a bit out of balance by some sort of unedifying bleak fairground ride (& I'm not referring to the original episode content which is of course excellent).
On the plus side the yetis look quite good & the Doctor's face is done well. The soundtrack is beautifully clear & dynamic.
I notice that in the bluray booklet Gary Russell, who it seems was one of those key to commissioning the animation, chooses his words very carefully; although tactful he sticks to the concepts involved & at no point does he say or even imply that the end result is satisfactory. Which sort of says a lot that he has no words of praise for the final aesthetic result. Of course elsewhere he may have enthused about the result - but not in his piece in the booklet.
I'm glad I bought it though as, although I may only be fooling myself, I thought I could see an improvement in picture quality & sound also. And the commentaries & other special features are nice, though I haven't delved that deep into those yet.. Although the animation is awful I no doubt would buy more if only one or two episodes were in that style & any original episodes had a full remastering. I wouldn't buy it if it was all in that mode - eg. a completely missing story eg. The Mythmakers as I wouldn't want to see such fine serials reduced to a travesty throughout their running time. Although possibly new reconstructions by Derek Handley & co. who do such great work, might draw me in, given improved soundtracks etc.
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Post by Richard Bignell on Aug 21, 2021 17:03:47 GMT
No one is blaming anyone else. I'm not sure why anyone is trying to suggest that they are.
The point is that there has been no universal agreement on animation and the styles employed. There hasn't been a single one where everyone has been 100% happy with it. Each and every one has had their fans and also their detractors, but human nature being what it is, it does tend to be those who don't like things who want to to be more vocal about it.
And despite what Richard Woods seems to think, no one has any issues with contructive critism. The trouble is, a lot of it simply isn't constuctive at all.
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Post by barneyhall on Aug 21, 2021 18:40:30 GMT
Thing is although I agree that all the animations have had there critics, they are usually minor criticisms or that the person doesn't like animations full stop and would rather a tele snap or narrated soundtrack. And as someone involved in music reviews I would also agree that usually the negative responses are usually the loudest and often with just unhelpful comments of hate. But pretty much all the comments here and the many other outlets I have seen have not only been constructive but also widespread. Usually theres a few moaners but alot of people saying hey animations is the best we can get so let's be grateful.with this release the people who seem to like the animation style are most definitely in the minority. If you need further proof look at the verified amazon reviews. Where even the 4* ones praise the surviving 5 eps (and the restoration on these is excellent) but slating the animation. I ask again is there somewhere sensible to collect these criticisms and suggest to not use this method again. A petition is a bit extreme but somewhere to to collate all the gripes in an articulate way somewhere for the people that make these commissioning decisions?
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Richard Develyn
Member
Living in hope that more missing episodes will come back to us.
Posts: 574
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Post by Richard Develyn on Aug 21, 2021 19:38:05 GMT
Ok, I've just watched the animation (just binge-watched the whole 6 episodes), and I thought it did a great job of illustrating the episode and making it much easier to follow and understand.
I was particularly impressed by the way the animators had produced some sort of action to match every bump, scrape and squeak on the sound-track.
In terms of constructive criticism, I will cite three things:
1) I didn't like the yeti; I thought they looked too much like they were made from mud rather than fur. 2) The tube map didn't show the circle line completely in black, which was a little bit jarring for me in the early part of the episode when that's exactly what everyone is talking about. 3) Although I applaud the fact that the animators were trying to use their media to the best of their ability, as opposed to being driven by the original media, and I could see how there was much interesting gesticulation going on, ultimately I would have preferred something more akin to how it was originally shot, with more close ups, and almost a sort of animation between the telesnaps with the telesnaps recognisably in place.
But, you know, it was good, and I'm sure I'll watch it again.
Richard
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