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Post by matthewsimms on Aug 29, 2020 0:31:49 GMT
Hello all, this is my first post on here but much like you all I have a vested interest in seeing episodes return to the BBC that were once lost (obviously). I just thought it seemed apt to post a new forum where discussion can be had on a summary of what we know about the Missing Episodes and the potential of them returning. Now I understand there have been some users on here which seem to doubt interest from a younger generation in seeing these episodes recovered, I can confirm (being a sprightly 19-year-old) that in fact there is a lot of interest from New Who fans who would love to see the 97 ME count go all the down to nought. So now i'm out of the way onto the burning questions, we know there are at least a handful (if not more) episodes out there still, so my question is what can be done to once again get the message out there that these episodes need to be recovered for us all to enjoy them? Also is there any particular places that need searching or any places that need contacting? Lastly, where do we stand on potential recoveries, to my understanding there are at least 7 (probably more but i'm being conservative here!) episodes we know of still out there but is there any new information on more discoveries or active investigations into the whereabouts of other Missing Episodes. Hope you are all doing well and hope this post will install renewed vigour in the hope that a younger generation also has a very keen interest in seeing these episodes return!
Kind regards,
Matthew
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Post by andyeves on Aug 29, 2020 5:38:06 GMT
Welcome to the forum, young whippersnapper. It’s great to see your enthusiasm for these old B&W episodes.
“… so my question is what can be done to once again get the message out there that these episodes need to be recovered for us all to enjoy them?”
Sounds like a cue to resurrect the Door-To-Door Knocking thread once again - LOL!
“Also is there any particular places that need searching or any places that need contacting?”
Leave it to Phil
“Lastly, where do we stand on potential recoveries, to my understanding there are at least 7 (probably more but i'm being conservative here!) episodes we know of still out there …”
Where did this figure of 7 known episodes come from? Phil confirmed he knows of 6 in private hands, which presumably includes WOF3 & Paul V’s known 2. I thought that recent blog (the subject of a separate thread) must have assumed that WOF3 was separate to Phil's 6, but now someone else is claiming there to be 7. Have I missed something recently?
“… but is there any new information on more discoveries or active investigations into the whereabouts of other Missing Episodes.”
Phil recently confirmed his search is still ongoing and hasn’t given up on finding more DW just yet.
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Post by matthewsimms on Aug 30, 2020 4:03:25 GMT
Thank you for taking the time to provide a summary of answers to my questions. I have been following this forum for over 6 months, not commenting but just checking in every once in a while to see if there has been any information on the potential recovery of any missing episodes.
When I mentioned; "so my question is what can be done to once again get the message out there that these episodes need to be recovered for us all to enjoy them?"
I believe the question was more directed was there a way of perhaps getting eyes back onto the fact that there are still 97 episodes missing. As an example perhaps a Trend on Twitter if we were able to accomplish such a feat. My guesstimate on the whereabouts of the ME's, I believe are with private collectors who perhaps recorded the episodes or even got their hands on an original reel. My theory is that the episodes are not lost (as in lost with no hope) but I more sway to the side of optimism and my thesis is that fans of the show have simply recorded the episodes, stuck them in a box in the loft and had forgotten about them. For example the Marco Polo serial, according to Wikipedia (not always the most reliable but i'll use this for now) states the episodes had anywhere between 8.4 - 10.4 million viewers in the UK alone. So i guess what i'm trying to say is that our best hopes may be those early fans who loved the episodes but then became disinterested about the show as time went by and just forgot about their recordings they had made and put them away in the loft never to be thought about again. I could be completely off the mark here but is there any practical way of reaching out to these types of fans. I am unsure whether social media stunts would be the way to go but maybe something along the lines of adds in papers or perhaps news programmes, or sadly if none of these are successful or thrown out as silly ideas perhaps Door-To-Door knocking may be making a socially distanced comeback in 2020!!!
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Post by andyeves on Aug 30, 2020 5:36:20 GMT
My theory is that the episodes are not lost (as in lost with no hope) but I more sway to the side of optimism and my thesis is that fans of the show have simply recorded the episodes, stuck them in a box in the loft and had forgotten about them. ... So i guess what i'm trying to say is that our best hopes may be those early fans who loved the episodes but then became disinterested about the show as time went by and just forgot about their recordings they had made and put them away in the loft never to be thought about again. Not sure whether, due to your young age, you envisage that home video recorders were prevalent during the 1960s, but the only viable home recording method would have been a cine camera. Odd clips filmed in that way do exist in the archives, and I’m aware of at least one person who recorded episodes for their son to watch but wiped them soon after. I suppose it is possible that we may recover more off-air clips and who knows, maybe even a complete off-air episode or two. But if you envisage that someone recorded bulk episodes in that way, retained them and simply forgot about them, I think you are indeed being highly optimistic. We have to accept that the vast majority of the 97 are unlikely to still exist in any form … but I’d be delighted to be proven wrong. Who knows, maybe there was an (as yet unknown) equivalent of Bob Monkhouse in the 1960s but with a cine camera. |
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Post by matthewsimms on Aug 30, 2020 6:02:28 GMT
Yes, I admit to being fairly optimistic in the search however, I wasn't saying expressly that I had hopes of finding all 97 ME's through home recordings (although this would be superb) it was more a thesis on how odd episodes may trickle back into the archives as I have read the story of the episode being recorded for the father's son. This was actually why I chose Marco Polo as an example as John Lucarotti was somewhat a Marco Polo fanatic and had done previous works on him, therefore my frame of mind was that like the previous anecdote perhaps an episode or two were recorded to teach or show children or even classes about Marco Polo, perhaps as a fun introduction into Marco Polo before a more in depth study. I know this may seem like a tangent but oft in my study I will watch perhaps a film or TV series on a subject or historical figure before delving deeper into the area of interest. Alas, my way of thinking may have been rather ahead of the time as there were no repeats or ways to record digitally and unless there was interest prior to watching the serial it may have been hard to predict if the serial was worth recording with expensive cameras or even if the episode would have been a useful learning tool.
I still remain optimistic about the recovery of ME's and hopefully we can start to see that number of 97 slowly trickle down......
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Post by stevegerald on Aug 30, 2020 7:55:47 GMT
My theory is that the episodes are not lost (as in lost with no hope) but I more sway to the side of optimism and my thesis is that fans of the show have simply recorded the episodes, stuck them in a box in the loft and had forgotten about them. ... So i guess what i'm trying to say is that our best hopes may be those early fans who loved the episodes but then became disinterested about the show as time went by and just forgot about their recordings they had made and put them away in the loft never to be thought about again. Not sure whether, due to your young age, you envisage that home video recorders were prevalent during the 1960s, but the only viable home recording method would have been a cine camera. Odd clips filmed in that way do exist in the archives, and I’m aware of at least one person who recorded episodes for their son to watch but wiped them soon after. I suppose it is possible that we may recover more off-air clips and who knows, maybe even a complete off-air episode or two. But if you envisage that someone recorded bulk episodes in that way, retained them and simply forgot about them, I think you are indeed being highly optimistic. We have to accept that the vast majority of the 97 are unlikely to still exist in any form … but I’d be delighted to be proven wrong. Who knows, maybe there was an (as yet unknown) equivalent of Bob Monkhouse in the 1960s but with a cine camera. There was also that person who recorded The Space Pirates 2. And there was also that other person who put up on YouTube off-air recordings of entire programmes that aired the same week (I think) as The Wheel in Space. |
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Post by andyeves on Aug 30, 2020 8:36:05 GMT
There are of course off-air clips of Hartnell episodes up for sale on eBay, but I won't believe they're bona fide 1960s footage until missing material is included.
Phil's next endeavour should be to search everyone's attic, especially of those who owned a cine camera in the 1960s. Should be a piece of cake compared to searching Nigerian TV station vaults ... :-)
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Post by Michael D. Kimpton on Aug 30, 2020 9:54:25 GMT
There are of course off-air clips of Hartnell episodes up for sale on eBay, but I won't believe they're bona fide 1960s footage until missing material is included. Phil's next endeavour should be to search everyone's attic, especially of those who owned a cine camera in the 1960s. Should be a piece of cake compared to searching Nigerian TV station vaults ... :-) It's not that simple. If it was, the 6 in private hands that Paul Vanezis knows about would have been recovered by now. Phil has the means to check archives around the world because his team helps overseas broadcasters to preserve their own material, so he and others go out there to get their old films and bring them back to Britain to make backup copies with the facilities we have here. Finding British material along the way is just a bonus. He does not have the authority to search people's homes. A man's home is his castle, after all, and if people dont want a stranger coming in on the off chance they have old film cans lying around somewhere, then they can stop him. It's as simple as that. I'm trying to pack up my house and move out cause I need repair work doing. The last thing I'd want is for an outsider coming in and ransacking my boxes because he heard I have a single 16mm print of a Hanna Barbera cartoon, and he thinks there might think I have more material. Besides, how would he find out if anyone has anything? Hes not a police detective, after all. No. Phil's next endeavour is to continue what hes doing; check foreign stations while working with them to save THEIR material. Despite everyone's belief that the overseas stations were picked clean, we've found 9 episodes in Nigeria, so any small number might be lying around somewhere out there. We cant know for sure, but unless a private collector comes forward, that is, for now, the best means of us seeing further lost programmes returning to us, including Doctor Who. |
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Post by andyeves on Aug 30, 2020 11:48:08 GMT
There are of course off-air clips of Hartnell episodes up for sale on eBay, but I won't believe they're bona fide 1960s footage until missing material is included. Phil's next endeavour should be to search everyone's attic, especially of those who owned a cine camera in the 1960s. Should be a piece of cake compared to searching Nigerian TV station vaults ... :-) It's not that simple. If it was, the 6 in private hands that Paul Vanezis knows about would have been recovered by now. Phil has the means to check archives around the world because his team helps overseas broadcasters to preserve their own material, so he and others go out there to get their old films and bring them back to Britain to make backup copies with the facilities we have here. Finding British material along the way is just a bonus. He does not have the authority to search people's homes. A man's home is his castle, after all, and if people dont want a stranger coming in on the off chance they have old film cans lying around somewhere, then they can stop him. It's as simple as that. I'm trying to pack up my house and move out cause I need repair work doing. The last thing I'd want is for an outsider coming in and ransacking my boxes because he heard I have a single 16mm print of a Hanna Barbera cartoon, and he thinks there might think I have more material. Besides, how would he find out if anyone has anything? Hes not a police detective, after all. No. Phil's next endeavour is to continue what hes doing; check foreign stations while working with them to save THEIR material. Despite everyone's belief that the overseas stations were picked clean, we've found 9 episodes in Nigeria, so any small number might be lying around somewhere out there. We cant know for sure, but unless a private collector comes forward, that is, for now, the best means of us seeing further lost programmes returning to us, including Doctor Who. Class response Mike, although I think the more astute members of this forum might just have twigged that I wasn't actually being serious! LOL! |
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Post by richardwoods on Aug 30, 2020 11:56:14 GMT
IIRC didn’t someone’s university lecturer father record episodes of The Ice Warriors in November 67 for his son on the University SONY CV2000 video recorder & then tape over them?
I watched a recording of the BBC coverage of the moon landing in my local school hall on a CV2000 the morning after the landing in 69.
I seem to remember some research on here that the very first domestic reel to reel video recorders were available to buy in the UK from some time in 1965, so there is always an infinitesimally tiny bit of hope from then on bearing in mind the limited number in use & deterioration of domestic tape.
In its favour of course there’s the extremely limited choice of channels available at the time, BBC & ITV in 405 & an unrecordable BBC2 for the privileged few, unless anyone knows of a dual standard reel to reel recorder?
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RWels
Member
Posts: 2,861
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Post by RWels on Aug 30, 2020 13:45:56 GMT
In its favour of course there’s the extremely limited choice of channels available at the time, BBC & ITV in 405 & an unrecordable BBC2 for the privileged few, unless anyone knows of a dual standard reel to reel recorder? Imported from (the rest of) Europe? |
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Post by Michael D. Kimpton on Aug 30, 2020 13:49:49 GMT
It's not that simple. If it was, the 6 in private hands that Paul Vanezis knows about would have been recovered by now. Phil has the means to check archives around the world because his team helps overseas broadcasters to preserve their own material, so he and others go out there to get their old films and bring them back to Britain to make backup copies with the facilities we have here. Finding British material along the way is just a bonus. He does not have the authority to search people's homes. A man's home is his castle, after all, and if people dont want a stranger coming in on the off chance they have old film cans lying around somewhere, then they can stop him. It's as simple as that. I'm trying to pack up my house and move out cause I need repair work doing. The last thing I'd want is for an outsider coming in and ransacking my boxes because he heard I have a single 16mm print of a Hanna Barbera cartoon, and he thinks there might think I have more material. Besides, how would he find out if anyone has anything? Hes not a police detective, after all. No. Phil's next endeavour is to continue what hes doing; check foreign stations while working with them to save THEIR material. Despite everyone's belief that the overseas stations were picked clean, we've found 9 episodes in Nigeria, so any small number might be lying around somewhere out there. We cant know for sure, but unless a private collector comes forward, that is, for now, the best means of us seeing further lost programmes returning to us, including Doctor Who. Class response Mike, although I think the more astute members of this forum might just have twigged that I wasn't actually being serious! LOL! Damn... Well it STARTED well, I guess.... |
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Post by Andrew Browne on Aug 30, 2020 14:08:09 GMT
I watched a recording of the BBC coverage of the moon landing in my local school hall on a CV2000 the morning after the landing in 69. Weren't the BBC pretty much rerunning the coverage on a loop that morning though? |
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Post by richardwoods on Aug 30, 2020 15:22:02 GMT
I watched a recording of the BBC coverage of the moon landing in my local school hall on a CV2000 the morning after the landing in 69. Weren't the BBC pretty much rerunning the coverage on a loop that morning though? Yes, but not in a way that was suitable for a preorganised event. Don’t forget there was no 24hrs news coverage back then and no BBC2 where we lived. Living in Carlisle at the time, despite being in England, the schools had closed for summer holidays as they were on the Scottish school term calendar at the time. I’m pretty sure it was set for the next day as otherwise it would have lost it’s immediacy, but I suppose it could possibly have been a few days later, It was an event put on for local children, and involved running the recording from a reel to reel video tape though the tv with the big legs and the headmaster and possibly some guests discussing the momentous events, (it’s a long time ago & I was only 6!). I’ve no idea who made the recording and whether it was part of a wider initiative. Being a young kid who was fascinated by technology, seeing a video recorder in action for the first time made almost as much impression as the moon landing at the time, so I’m sure of my facts. I passed this on to PV some years ago as an extremely cold lead for a possible recording of at least the crucial bits of the moon landing languishing in a cupboard somewhere but it unsurprisingly came to nothing. |
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Post by richardwoods on Aug 30, 2020 15:25:20 GMT
In its favour of course there’s the extremely limited choice of channels available at the time, BBC & ITV in 405 & an unrecordable BBC2 for the privileged few, unless anyone knows of a dual standard reel to reel recorder? Imported from (the rest of) Europe? Not sure that would have been possible as much of Europe used a different audio separation signal on UHF from us, hence DX reception of Dutch & German TV in the UK we used to get in Lincolnshire in the 70’s was silent. |
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