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Post by lousingh on Apr 10, 2020 7:27:54 GMT
Several points:
1. Why are these people keeping the episodes?
As Mattg mentioned, it probably is the "City of Death" explanation: they have it; we want it; they can gloat. Another might be that they are former BBC employees who are angry at being sacked. A third is that they are collectors who hold these in reserve to trade for something else that is similarly rare.
2. How can they be convinced to relinquish them?
Everything has a price; odds are it is pretty exorbitant. If we assume they are not fans (I assume this), then one would need to trade a similarly rare item that they would like more than the episodes. Depending on the person, you might be talking about a scratch copy of the master reels of "Star Wars: A New Hope" up to, say, the original lyrics that Van Dyke Parks wrote for Brian Wilson for "Smile". Anything here would be very painful to relinquish.
3. Is there hope of their return?
Yes. In fact, I am quite optimistic. If the current owners had intended to sit on them for whatever reason, I think it is unlikely that they would have revealed the episodes' existence; as I said, you normally hold stuff like this in reserve for private deals. Thus, I expect that the owners have at least considered returning them and may be waiting for something specific to happen or a specific price to be met.
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Post by andyeves on Apr 10, 2020 8:16:06 GMT
Starburst Aug 2016, Phil’s WOF3 revelation "But we’re on top of that. That is not going to stay missing for too long. So … we are working on that." … he sounded so certain that I was maybe 90% convinced that he already had it in his possession. But listening to this latest interview when he says “we do have an idea of where that episode is” I now doubt whether the culprit (assuming he has identified the correct person) has even admitted to having it.
The fact that Phil wasn’t returning episodes on an ad hoc basis never deterred me from believing he had made recoveries (Who and/or non-Who) as he’d make clear that he’d batch these up and return them as a lot … and indeed this was proven to be so late 2018. At the same time as announcing these returns, he also said "I am positive more Doctor Who will turn up." This led me to believe he would soon follow this up with a DW recoveries batch, and whilst I can understand why he may choose to separate them, I can’t see why he’d leave it this long.
This isn’t to say that he doesn’t have any missing Who as there may be behind-the-scenes reasons for the delay, and his latest confirmation that he’s "not done on the Doctor Who front yet" is cause for optimism. But whilst I’ll keep an open mind, having listened to this latest interview, I’m now in the camp that he’s unlikely to have any DW and unlikely to make any further DW recoveries from overseas TV stations, and that I’ve probably read too much into Phil’s previous positivity.
So I guess we’re largely reliant on the goodwill of collectors and those who eventually inherit their collection, but given Phil's latest comments and the manner in which it was acquired, I’d rate WOF3 as one of the least likely of the 6 known episodes to be returned during my lifetime.
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Richard Develyn
Member
Living in hope that more missing episodes will come back to us.
Posts: 574
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Post by Richard Develyn on Apr 10, 2020 9:30:30 GMT
But real life definitely is making people make grand gestures. Nurses and doctors would be perfectly entitled to refuse to go into work unless provided with proper protective equipment and yet they’re doing so anyway at great risk to themselves. And some of them have died as a result. That’s a massive gesture, far greater than returning an ME. And what about the grand gestures of the new york fire service during 9/11? People make grand gestures like this all the time. Richard Unfortunately, grand gestures are only made in relation to the crisis itself, not some left-field subject such as missing episodes or someone confessing he knows the whereabouts of the Holy Grail just because humanity is suffering.These are arbitrary subjects,with nothing to do with world events.Sorry Richard. Actually, I disagree. I'm a strong believer in "what goes around comes around". I think people are inspired to be nice if they see other people being nice, even with something totally unrelated. And vice versa of course. I think people form an opinion in their head about the "niceness" of the world and behave accordingly. When you add to that niceness, you could be inspiring anyone. Richard
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Post by Jaspal Cheema on Apr 10, 2020 9:36:38 GMT
Unfortunately, grand gestures are only made in relation to the crisis itself, not some left-field subject such as missing episodes or someone confessing he knows the whereabouts of the Holy Grail just because humanity is suffering.These are arbitrary subjects,with nothing to do with world events.Sorry Richard. Actually, I disagree. I'm a strong believer in "what goes around comes around". I think people are inspired to be nice if they see other people being nice, even with something totally unrelated. And vice versa of course. I think people form an opinion in their head about the "niceness" of the world and behave accordingly. When you add to that niceness, you could be inspiring anyone. Richard Well on one level you could say Philip Morris has done exactly that.Whether it was deliberate or just coinciding with the current situation,the fact that he has publicly confided that 6 more episodes existing in the hands of private collectors has made me very happy,even if that was all he could do at the present time and as a Dr Who fan,his revelation has brightened up my enforced self-isolation no end!
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Post by mattg on Apr 10, 2020 10:36:01 GMT
Money may possibly be the key...Maybe a crowd funding exercise or a madly rich uber fan might save the day because I so believe some of these episodes will not appear otherwise. Funny you should mention that as I had intended to start a thread on here dedicated to that very possibility! Specifically I wanted to canvass board members' opinions on how they, as fans, would feel about a hypothetically crowd-funded missing episode recovery (were such material established beyond all doubt to exist obviously). It's an undeniably fascinating - and these days far from implausible, scenario. Not least because such a proposal would inevitably engender bitter divide within fandom pitting those in eager support against others opposed to paying money for material the BBC has previously had returned for gratis (compounded by legitimate concerns that paying likely thousands to a private collector would set a dangerous precedent too no doubt). Unfortunately though I suspect such a debate would be largely futile simply because there are just too many hypothetical variables to said scenario to ruminate on with any tangible focus...
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Post by Jaspal Cheema on Apr 10, 2020 10:53:52 GMT
Money may possibly be the key...Maybe a crowd funding exercise or a madly rich uber fan might save the day because I so believe some of these episodes will not appear otherwise. Funny you should mention that as I had intended to start a thread on here dedicated to that very possibility! Specifically I wanted to canvass board members' opinions on how they, as fans, would feel about a hypothetically crowd-funded mission episode recovery (were such material established beyond all doubt to exist obviously). It's an undeniably fascinating - and these days far from implausible, scenario. Not least because such a proposal would inevitably bitterly divide fandom between those in eager support and others opposed to paying money for material the BBC has previously had returned for gratis (compounded by legitimate concerns that paying likely thousands to a private collector would set a dangerous precedent too no doubt). Unfortunately though I suspect such a debate would be largely futile simply because there are just too many hypothetical variables to said scenario to ruminate on with any tangible focus... I wouldn't give crowd funding for missing episodes the time of day.That would be atrocious. Best crowd fund for those who truly need it like St Raphael' Hospice for cancer patients or some other worthy cause.Missing episodes are just a bit of fluff or what Indians call 'Time-pass'.Let's not elevate them to a fiscal level which is totally un-called for.
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Post by brianfretwell on Apr 10, 2020 11:29:47 GMT
Another reason might be like this. An elderly collector thinks that the print he has could be a pension bonus if he sells it when he needs it. If he returns it to the BBC they will only copy and send it back without paying and release on DVD/Blu Ray. He fears that would vastly reduce any price he could sell it for so won't return it.
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Post by stevehoare61 on Apr 10, 2020 11:57:10 GMT
If people want to donate to the Hospice Jaspal, then they can do that anyway. Most of us have money going out each month for one good cause or another , let alone what is raised by the Lottery etc,.. Im agreeing with Matt, there is a possibility it could work,...it would need someone with the knowledge of how to set it up, with a couple of people that oversee it and it must be transparent. No one is forced to donate just as no one has ever been forced to donate to anything. I cant imagine what is atrocious about it at all. People could donate when and if they wish too,...and if Phil has contact with these Collectors, he could or maybe someone else , maybe someone totally uninterested in DW, to investigate possible agreements , terms and prices and use the collected monies to pay for it. We all want them back, we all want to see them. The BBC has made it very clear they wont pay for anything, so maybe we will have to do it, if that is the Collectors terms.
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Post by John Wall on Apr 10, 2020 11:59:49 GMT
Paying for MEs has been discussed many times and there are lots of issues.
There’s a big difference between, say, WoF3 or TP4 and an odd episode of, say, a lesser historical.
To fans like us anything is worthwhile but this is a massive can of worms.
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Post by andyeves on Apr 10, 2020 12:39:13 GMT
Phil is on record as saying that the worst thing us fans could do is to attach a monetary value to these missing episodes, so perhaps it would be wise to end this conversation here ...
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Post by Ronnie McDevitt on Apr 10, 2020 13:44:09 GMT
Jaspal Cheema said:
These are arbitrary subjects,with nothing to do with world events. [/quote]
Agreed. Such things have taken on a whole new perspective.
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Post by stevehoare61 on Apr 10, 2020 18:55:55 GMT
Youll have to excuse my cynicism over what Phil says,...he may well be right, but Im tired of him popping up every year or two, making comments, that set the fans off again,sets off all the arguing and nastiness on the forums and again and again, nothing comes of it. You cannot blame peoples frustration, and echoing someones earlier comment,...we are not getting any younger, the people that made and acted in these serials are dying, the fans that watched as kids are now old people themselves and they are dying...much longer and there wont be anyone left to want to see them. The new fans and the kids of today aren't as interested in old B/W episodes as we are. Weve let Phil do things his way, and after over 10 years we have very few episodes back, and I mean of all kinds of TV,...maybe its time to consider or even debate something else without simply discarding it.
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Post by lousingh on Apr 11, 2020 3:57:23 GMT
Youll have to excuse my cynicism over what Phil says,...he may well be right, but Im tired of him popping up every year or two, making comments, that set the fans off again,sets off all the arguing and nastiness on the forums and again and again, nothing comes of it. You cannot blame peoples frustration, and echoing someones earlier comment,...we are not getting any younger, the people that made and acted in these serials are dying, the fans that watched as kids are now old people themselves and they are dying...much longer and there wont be anyone left to want to see them. The new fans and the kids of today aren't as interested in old B/W episodes as we are. Weve let Phil do things his way, and after over 10 years we have very few episodes back, and I mean of all kinds of TV,...maybe its time to consider or even debate something else without simply discarding it. I understand your frustration. The problem is that the people with the films hold all the cards and they know it. And once rare items get into a collector's hands, it is very difficult to extract them. I feel very badly for those who have passed and missed out for whatever reasons. I wish that sentiment could have changed their minds. If I knew a way to meet whatever price they would want on the private market, I would do it. I strongly advise against any kind of pressure on the owners - if they are not fans of Doctor Who, we could see the films meeting the same fate as the paintings from the Kunsthal Art Theft. (Think Lon and Tegan with the curator from part three of "Snakedance".) Like it or not, we have to wait for them to make their moves.
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Post by andyeves on Apr 11, 2020 5:24:57 GMT
Youll have to excuse my cynicism over what Phil says,...he may well be right, but Im tired of him popping up every year or two, making comments, that set the fans off again,sets off all the arguing and nastiness on the forums and again and again, nothing comes of it. You cannot blame peoples frustration, and echoing someones earlier comment,...we are not getting any younger, the people that made and acted in these serials are dying, the fans that watched as kids are now old people themselves and they are dying...much longer and there wont be anyone left to want to see them. The new fans and the kids of today aren't as interested in old B/W episodes as we are. Weve let Phil do things his way, and after over 10 years we have very few episodes back, and I mean of all kinds of TV,...maybe its time to consider or even debate something else without simply discarding it. I agree that Phil has made comments that would now appear to have been based on over-optimism. Fans read too much into it, and it is incredibly frustrating to have your hopes raised only for nothing to come of it. But let’s not lose sight of the fact that 9 episodes (& some non-DW episodes) have been returned, and we have the knowledge that most overseas sources have at least been checked … all thanks to Phil, often visiting places that most of us simply wouldn’t have the balls to go. So whilst he may have made mistakes, these are nothing for which he deserves stick given all that he has achieved for the restoration of lost TV. We’re largely reliant on collectors now, and I’m of the opinion that our best hope of returns lies through Phil as an intermediary. Collectors point to the stick that he’s received, and although that may be just an excuse, unfair criticism of Phil only strengthens it. Personally I think we should get behind Phil and put our faith in him as he is best placed to squeeeeeeze blood from a stone, and not do anything that will impede his operation. We just need to manage our expectations of his likely success at least during our lifetime, and treat with caution the confidence he expressed in this latest interview that all 6 episodes will eventually be back with the BBC.
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Post by John Wall on Apr 11, 2020 8:02:07 GMT
He’s been looking for many years and there can’t be very many TV stations that he hasn’t visited, with the possible exception of places like Iran!
Realistically complete stories were only going to come back from TV stations so we’re probably left with oddballs in the hands of collectors.
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