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Post by Luke Sherlaw on Apr 6, 2020 22:05:18 GMT
I may try and contact Phil on Twitter and see if he's at liberty to elaborate further because as John and George D have eluded to: it's very ambiguous right now. Although I suspect I may be chancing my arm a bit, it's worth a try if it's information he doesn't mind giving out.
Assuming this isn't a hoax, the worst case scenario is the figure of 6 include Web 3 and the 2 Paul Vanezis Hartnells, leaving us with 3 episodes whose identity we have absolutely no idea about. Best case scenario is the figure of 6 didn't include those 3 so that leaves us with 9 potential episodes out there. I feel like the figure almost certainly included Web 3 though, the 2 Hartnells less so but still quite likely. I feel like in the context it was delivered, it sounded like he was referring to collectors he'd been in contact with himself so who knows if one of them is the guy Paul is aware of?
I do think Australia is a good candidate for recoveries: it's quite possible that they had multiple prints of every episode (that print that had "Melbourne copy" on it i think it was). It also boasts the earliest example of an episode going walkies from a TV station, 1970 IIRC. Shows there was interest over there just like in the UK. I feel like there's a few episodes in collections down under.
I also feel like the 1975 Australian returns cache is the proverbial pot of gold for missing Who. A lot of what we've had returned from collections is almost certainly from that cache, the most obvious example being Terry Burnett's prints of UM2 and Airlock. My honest opinion is there's more to come from that cache. It all depends on one thing: accessibility. If these prints were muddled in with hundreds of films near a skip and it'd be impossible to delve into the prints further away, they may have just took what was closest but it may have been possible that they could have looked through everything as well, we'll never know unless someone who partook in such activity back then is asked about it. It's often made out that the liberation of these prints was some highly undercover affair where the loading bays were patrolled by guards with MP5 submachine guns and prints were seldom taken. It almost certainly wasn't the case. Most former employees have said that it was a relaxed affair where employees were told "there's some films on the loading bays, take what you want" and many did. Paul V has posted this info on this very site before and I know of several others who've said the same. The number of prints that got out is probably higher than a lot of folks believe, the question is whether they survive today. That's what gives me some hope for Power. It was in the 1975 cache and it has the word "Daleks" in it; premium loot for any opportunist. Even someone who wasn't a fan of Who would have been aware of Dalekmania and the possible cultural significance of such an episode, and indeed the collectibility of it. All of Power probably is gone, but that's something that gives me more hope for that serial than say an episode of Fury or Space Pirates for instance. Anything from that 1975 cache is fair game in my eyes.
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Post by John Wall on Apr 6, 2020 22:18:55 GMT
I’m interested to know where it’s been stated that PV is aware of two Hartnell MEs? I wasn’t aware that that level of detail had been forthcoming but might have missed something. Multiple prints for Australia seem, generally, unlikely broadwcast.org/index.php/Australia and only seem to have been possible in a few instances.
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Post by Luke Sherlaw on Apr 6, 2020 23:44:22 GMT
I’m interested to know where it’s been stated that PV is aware of two Hartnell MEs? I wasn’t aware that that level of detail had been forthcoming but might have missed something. Multiple prints for Australia seem, generally, unlikely broadwcast.org/index.php/Australia and only seem to have been possible in a few instances. I actually linked you this a month or two back on here when you asked the same thing It should be in a recent thread on here since it's been quiet recently. It was from a podcast Paul featured in. He's spoken to a collector who claims to have two episodes and has given those episode names to him. He said that one episode is from the 1975 returns cache (so Myth Makers, Galaxy 4, Smugglers, or Tenth planet 4), and one isn't. Could it be a hoax? Yes. Could it be real? Yes. I hope the latter. It's something Paul has raised so it's worth mentioning.
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Post by scotttelfer on Apr 7, 2020 1:58:05 GMT
The strange thing which I don't seem to understand is why the titles of the episodes are not allowed to be mentioned? Is there some algorithm which will somehow allow people to trace the episode back to the collector?The whole scenario seems overly romanticised to me.Wouldn't PM or PV have been told what the title of the episodes are?How do they know they aren't dupes?Can't we be told which ones they are? Just reminds me of ex-girlfriends not telling you what their romantic status is after you've broken up!Probably. I’ve previously suggested that if the titles are known they wouldn’t be a candidate for animation. Consequently I think it’s pretty certain that episodes of Macra, Faceless, etc, etc aren't known to exist.
They'd still be candidates for animation, the problem is that I can't see anyone being happy buying the DVD/Blu-Ray knowing there's possibly going to be a re-release in a few years time. It's risky enough knowing the Blu Ray box sets are coming.
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Post by zaqwilson on Apr 7, 2020 4:29:48 GMT
I remember the interview with Paul where the collector was discussed with 2 ME's. I remember the statment that one matched items from the 75 Australia return and one didnt.
I don't, however remember anything identifying them as Hartnells for sure. I thought that was simply conjecture?
I assumed it stemmed from the belief they were likely to be TP4 & DMP 4. Also the new years rumor a few years back that 2 Hartnells were discovered.
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Post by Jaspal Cheema on Apr 7, 2020 9:38:27 GMT
I’ve previously suggested that if the titles are known they wouldn’t be a candidate for animation. Consequently I think it’s pretty certain that episodes of Macra, Faceless, etc, etc aren't known to exist. They'd still be candidates for animation, the problem is that I can't see anyone being happy buying the DVD/Blu-Ray knowing there's possibly going to be a re-release in a few years time. It's risky enough knowing the Blu Ray box sets are coming.
I think you've hit the nail on the head there Scot.Knowing what we know now, how more likely is it that prints will be given over for blu-ray release by collectors and if not, will the BBC still go ahead and release any B/W season with say that existing episode as animation? Surely the BBC are also privy to this information and will liase with PM and PV to ensure the collectors are looked after?
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Post by scotttelfer on Apr 7, 2020 10:29:12 GMT
They'd still be candidates for animation, the problem is that I can't see anyone being happy buying the DVD/Blu-Ray knowing there's possibly going to be a re-release in a few years time. It's risky enough knowing the Blu Ray box sets are coming.
I think you've hit the nail on the head there Scot.Knowing what we know now, how more likely is it that prints will be given over for blu-ray release by collectors and if not, will the BBC still go ahead and release any B/W season with say that existing episode as animation? Surely the BBC are also privy to this information and will liase with PM and PV to ensure the collectors are looked after?
If the collectors are concerned about handing them over now, how the BBC intends to release them is irrelevant. In the case of the two episodes, it's a collector who has no personal investment in Doctor Who. In the case of the six episodes it's people that Phil Morris knows personally and are fully aware how certain portions of the fan base feel about private collectors, either because they've held onto the film for decades and are scared how people will react knowing that or they recently acquired it and will have some idiots thinking this is their new undercover agent in the deepest darks of the film black market who is going to give them a haul on the scale of the omnirum... what do you mean you haven't found anything after five years? BURN THE WITCH!!!
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Post by Jaspal Cheema on Apr 7, 2020 10:47:48 GMT
I think you've hit the nail on the head there Scot.Knowing what we know now, how more likely is it that prints will be given over for blu-ray release by collectors and if not, will the BBC still go ahead and release any B/W season with say that existing episode as animation? Surely the BBC are also privy to this information and will liase with PM and PV to ensure the collectors are looked after? If the collectors are concerned about handing them over now, how the BBC intends to release them is irrelevant. In the case of the two episodes, it's a collector who has no personal investment in Doctor Who. In the case of the six episodes it's people that Phil Morris knows personally and are fully aware how certain portions of the fan base feel about private collectors, either because they've held onto the film for decades and are scared how people will react knowing that or they recently acquired it and will have some idiots thinking this is their new undercover agent in the deepest darks of the film black market who is going to give them a haul on the scale of the omnirum... what do you mean you haven't found anything after five years? BURN THE WITCH!!!
The mystery deepens Scott...if the 2 episodes are held by an impartial collector,how much more likely is it that the 2 episodes will be handed over as opposed to the other 6?
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Post by John Wall on Apr 7, 2020 11:41:57 GMT
There’s a lot of stuff been posted here but, afaik, the only ME definitely known to exist is WoF3 and that’s because PM saw it before it was “liberated”.
Again, it comes down to how it easy - as I’ve previously outlined - it is to generate a hoax. I’ve compared MEs to Krynoid pods in the past, because they tend to travel in pairs. The batch returned from Australia is (because of the censor cuts reinstated) a proven source and it looks like whoever, single or multiple, “acquired” them had a bag, briefcase, etc that could only easily hold a couple of cans.
Based on that the two Hartnells claimed to have come from Australia returns, whether we like it or not, tick all the boxes for an extremely credible hoax.
It still leaves the fundamental question unanswered, how have the prints been definitively identified as MEs?
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Post by Jaspal Cheema on Apr 7, 2020 11:51:51 GMT
On another level, is it because of the drive to complete classic Dr Who on blu-ray that collectors are coming forward with prints?Are the BBC asking PM to follow up leads on their behalf as these would be a quicker aquisition to enhance their releases than waiting for PM to gather episodes or stories himself?Curiouser and curiouser...
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Post by John Wall on Apr 7, 2020 12:06:00 GMT
On another level, is it because of the drive to complete classic Dr Who on blu-ray that collectors are coming forward with prints?Are the BBC asking PM to follow up leads on their behalf as these would be a quicker aquisition to enhance their releases than waiting for PM to gather episodes or stories himself?Curiouser and curiouser... Why would Auntie need PM? I remember a few years ago PV, I think, followed up a lead which turned out to be an episode of The Romans. Airlock and UM2 came back because of a casual conversation with a collector who didn’t know they had something important. There’s far too much uncertainty and speculation around. PM has made vague statements in the past and we should be very cautious. I’d be more confident in believing that his claimed six included WoF3 and the couple reported by PV than in believing that it’s another six.
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Post by Jaspal Cheema on Apr 7, 2020 14:18:09 GMT
On another level, is it because of the drive to complete classic Dr Who on blu-ray that collectors are coming forward with prints?Are the BBC asking PM to follow up leads on their behalf as these would be a quicker aquisition to enhance their releases than waiting for PM to gather episodes or stories himself?Curiouser and curiouser... Why would Auntie need PM? I remember a few years ago PV, I think, followed up a lead which turned out to be an episode of The Romans. Airlock and UM2 came back because of a casual conversation with a collector who didn’t know they had something important. There’s far too much uncertainty and speculation around. PM has made vague statements in the past and we should be very cautious. I’d be more confident in believing that his claimed six included WoF3 and the couple reported by PV than in believing that it’s another six. If PM or PV state that there are missing episodes in the hands of private collectors,if anything that helps to dispel uncertainty and speculation in my mind.These individuals are dedicated to what they do.They understand the importance of hard facts, not rumour like any scientific or forensic process and let's face it,this is what they're dealing with. They will give us the results and as I've said before, the recovery of Dr Who's missing episodes are in good hands.
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Post by John Wall on Apr 7, 2020 14:30:50 GMT
Why would Auntie need PM? I remember a few years ago PV, I think, followed up a lead which turned out to be an episode of The Romans. Airlock and UM2 came back because of a casual conversation with a collector who didn’t know they had something important. There’s far too much uncertainty and speculation around. PM has made vague statements in the past and we should be very cautious. I’d be more confident in believing that his claimed six included WoF3 and the couple reported by PV than in believing that it’s another six. If PM or PV state that there are missing episodes in the hands of private collectors,if anything that helps to dispel uncertainty and speculation in my mind.These individuals are dedicated to what they do.They understand the importance of hard facts, not rumour like any scientific or forensic process and let's face it,this is what they're dealing with. They will give us the results and as I've said before, the recovery of Dr Who's missing episodes are in good hands. I certainly hope so and trust that they’re absolutely certain as we’ve been here before 👎 Trust, but verify.....
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Post by Ronnie McDevitt on Apr 7, 2020 15:01:35 GMT
The strange thing which I don't seem to understand is why the titles of the episodes are not allowed to be mentioned? Is there some algorithm which will somehow allow people to trace the episode back to the collector?The whole scenario seems overly romanticised to me.Wouldn't PM or PV have been told what the title of the episodes are?How do they know they aren't dupes?Can't we be told which ones they are? Just reminds me of ex-girlfriends not telling you what their romantic status is after you've broken up!Probably. It would be a gross betrayal of trust if the episode titles were publicised. And that lack of trust would almost certainly result in an end to negotiations between the same parties for any potential returns.
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Post by Jaspal Cheema on Apr 7, 2020 16:08:09 GMT
The strange thing which I don't seem to understand is why the titles of the episodes are not allowed to be mentioned? Is there some algorithm which will somehow allow people to trace the episode back to the collector?The whole scenario seems overly romanticised to me.Wouldn't PM or PV have been told what the title of the episodes are?How do they know they aren't dupes?Can't we be told which ones they are? Just reminds me of ex-girlfriends not telling you what their romantic status is after you've broken up!Probably. It would be a gross betrayal of trust if the episode titles were publicised. And that lack of trust would almost certainly result in an end to negotiations between the same parties for any potential returns. I suppose it is what it is...I'm not going to counter what is accepted procedure. I just would like them returned and be able to view them in my lifetime.
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