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Post by Qasim Yusuf on May 26, 2019 18:28:41 GMT
As we know, episode 1 of Galaxy 4 has a 6 minute surviving clip. I was watching the recon of it today and I noticed that at around the 2 minutes into the clip, there is a few seconds of missing footage where Maaga says "there is no life on this planet" before the clip continues. Why is this?
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RWels
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Post by RWels on May 27, 2019 7:32:44 GMT
Isn't this where several (three?) programs had all used clips, and all they connect, with just the one sentence missing? Kind of like every program in need of DW clips would just cut off the next bit of film like it was a toilet roll.
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Post by jcoleman on May 27, 2019 13:12:47 GMT
IIRC, the nearly 6 minute clip was copied from the episode one telerecording, as a segment was wanted for inclusion in the 1977 Lively Arts - Who's Doctor Who documentary (which was made during the filming of The Talons of Weng Chiang).
A 30 second segment was excised from the middle of the overall clip and appears in the documentary with a tint applied. This cutting of the film resulted in a few frames being lost, hence Maaga's missing line.
The remaining off-cuts from either side of the 30 second section were given to Jan Vincent-Rudzki, who was president of the Doctor Who Appreciation Society at the time, as a thank-you for his help with the documentary.
Mr Vincent-Rudzki kept the footage safe for years, apparently reluctant to return it to the BBC until the Restoration Team became involved in the home-media releases, as he didn't trust the BBC to keep it safe especially as it wasn't a complete episode.
Whereas the Loose Cannon reconstruction pauses on a still frame of Maaga during the missing line, the abbreviated reconstruction of Galaxy Four included in The Aztecs Special Edition release cuts to a brief repeated shot of Steven and Vicki to cover the missing frames. This works well and unless you know about the missing frames you'd be none-the-wiser.
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RWels
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Post by RWels on May 27, 2019 13:39:48 GMT
This cutting of the film resulted in a few frames being lost, hence Maaga's missing line. The line is 1-2 seconds, so that's 50 frames already. Still, could have been an accident with the scissors. Or perhaps they needed to cut just a little bit extra for time so they took a bit off of several items including this. |
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Post by jcoleman on May 27, 2019 15:24:20 GMT
Presumably the missing second or two formed the start of the section excised for use in the documentary. This would then have been edited again in the final programme. As this section of the film wasn't retained afterwards the frames at the start were lost and we just have the 30 seconds from the documentary.
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Post by Hugh Pearson on May 29, 2019 13:35:33 GMT
Another thing to remember is that on 16mm film, there is an optical audio track that does not synch directly with the video frames. The result of that is that if you have a piece of 16mm film - just a film clip - it will be missing some of the audio. Others here may be able to explain this better, but here is a quotation about audio from Steve Roberts / Paul Vanezis of the Restoration Team on Restoring 'The War Machines' that might help explain it: Episode Four
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3. Two lines of dialogue are missing when Polly reports back to WOTAN
Brett: Wotan will consider your case later. If found guilty you will be destroyed.
Polly: I Understand
Krimpton: For the moment your help is needed here
Krimpton's last line is seen, although the sound is missing (due to the 16 frame offset between sound and pictures on 16mm film). We thought that this shot could be reinstated by incorporating shots of Wotan from other episodes.
A total of 17 seconds is missing from this episode.from -> www.impossiblethings.net/restorationteam/warmach.htm |
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RWels
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Post by RWels on May 29, 2019 14:35:14 GMT
Not sure if that's relevant in this case. And 16 frames is less than one second, read it well, it's just the time to say "your help is needed".
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Post by Hugh Pearson on May 29, 2019 14:48:55 GMT
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Post by Robbie Moubert on Jun 1, 2019 23:34:21 GMT
Here's a quick and dirty picture just to illustrate how the offset works. With a combined print (one that has the sound include on it either as an optical or magnetic track) the projector or telecine machine has the sound head physically located ahead of the picture gate. The sound for the picture at point A is at point B on the print. If you cut the film at the picture change (A) you'd lose 16 frames worth of sound. At the end of a section of film you'd have the first sixteen frames of the sound from the next section.  |
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Jun 2, 2019 10:00:59 GMT
Here's a quick and dirty picture just to illustrate how the offset works. With a combined print (one that has the sound include on it either as an optical or magnetic track) the projector or telecine machine has the sound head physically located ahead of the picture gate. The sound for the picture at point A is at point B on the print. If you cut the film at the picture change (A) you'd lose 16 frames worth of sound. At the end of a section of film you'd have the first sixteen frames of the sound from the next section. ...because otherwise the sound head would have to be right next to (or inside of) the lens of the film projector. But like I said, 16 frames is less than a second, it's more or less the shortest time span that you will still consciously notice! Plus, it works both ways, because at the other end of the film, you have the reverse situation. This episode can be seen online, and when the fragment starts, you can indeed see this delay at work - you hear half a second of lower quality "off-air" audio when the surviving clip starts. But not during that one missing line. |
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Post by Robbie Moubert on Jun 2, 2019 19:00:36 GMT
Plus, it works both ways, because at the other end of the film, you have the reverse situation. Which I mentioned in my post. Just for the sake of clarity, I was making no claims about any specific clips, merely pointing out how the offset works for those who weren't sure. |
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Post by Ed Brown on Jun 4, 2019 10:23:17 GMT
In fact the example image used here to illustrate the point is not clear, because the traditional indicators have been omitted, so there is no indication of the direction the film is travelling in.
But the point is that on any film print - as long as it is not a sep mag (provided with a separate magnetic soundtrack) - the sound is synchronised by placing it 16 frames behind the image (two-thirds of a second, in a 24fps motion picture print), due to the arrangement in the projection equipment which separates the image-lens from the optical soundtrack reader.
A consequence of this is that every accidental break in the film will also damage the optical sound track printed onto the film, but at a different point to the image damage. And every break is repaired by discarding several frames, rarely is damage conveniently restricted to one frame only.
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Post by brianfretwell on Jun 8, 2019 8:12:01 GMT
Yes the 16 frames are needed to return the film from intermittent motion to project to smooth for the soundtrack playback.
On 35mm the Dolby digital track reader was ahead of the gate (played through a delay) and the analogue after so that if there was any fault (damage) to the digital track there was time for auto switching to the analogue one.
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Post by Ed Brown on Jul 20, 2019 14:13:35 GMT
IIRC, the nearly 6 minute clip was copied from the episode one telerecording, as a segment was wanted for inclusion in the 1977 Lively Arts - Who's Doctor Who documentary (which was made during the filming of The Talons of Weng Chiang). A 30 second segment was excised from the middle of the overall clip and appears in the documentary with a tint applied. This cutting of the film resulted in a few frames being lost, hence Maaga's missing line. The remaining off-cuts from either side of the 30 second section were given to Jan Vincent-Rudzki, who was president of the Doctor Who Appreciation Society at the time, as a thank-you for his help with the documentary. Mr Vincent-Rudzki kept the footage safe for years, apparently reluctant to return it to the BBC until the Restoration Team became involved in the home-media releases, as he didn't trust the BBC to keep it safe especially as it wasn't a complete episode. In defence of Jan Vincent Rudzki - Jan founded the 'Dr Who Appreciation Society', in 1976. The correct facts are these: when it emerged, after the founding of BBC Archives in 1978, that the section of film he had been given in 1977 was now the only surviving footage from the serial, he twice offered to return it to the BBC, and was turned down both times, when they told him they weren't interested in it as it wasn't a complete episode! |
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Post by Ronnie McDevitt on Jul 20, 2019 14:28:05 GMT
Jan had kept the footage to his self refusing requests to copy it for other fans which I 100% respect was his right.
For many years this sequence was subject to much speculation plus unfounded rumours he was hoarding other footage Somehow a copy mysteriously leaked out from his collection in the early 1990s for the video circuit which meant Jan no longer had the only copy.
This was possibly a factor in his returning the material but I for one am grateful to him for preserving the lengthy sequence.
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