Abominable Snowmen episode 2

[Richard Bignell]

Feb 5, 2019 6:11:23 GMT Qasim Yusuf said:

Wasn't The Time Meddler still a largely missing story in 1982? It seems strange that he didn't choose to purchase those episodes.

As I said, this was the list Ian recalled - and despite his assurances that his memory is always 100% accurate on things, it really isn't!

We can, quite rightly, discount the three episodes of The Time Meddler, as Ian tracked those down to Nigeria.

[Leighton Haberfield]

Thanks Richard

Do you know,what country sent the Snowmen print back?

[seanmartindill2]

Feb 5, 2019 9:32:16 GMT Richard Bignell said:

Feb 5, 2019 6:11:23 GMT Qasim Yusuf said:

Wasn't The Time Meddler still a largely missing story in 1982? It seems strange that he didn't choose to purchase those episodes.

As I said, this was the list Ian recalled - and despite his assurances that his memory is always 100% accurate on things, it really isn't!

We can, quite rightly, discount the three episodes of The Time Meddler, as Ian tracked those down to Nigeria.

Did Ian not say that it was well known that he had those 3 episodes of Time Meddler in his possession as a bargaining tool. That the ones from Nigeria were edited and that when the story was chosen for the repeat in 1991 (2) that he returned the unedited prints.

[Richard Bignell]

Feb 5, 2019 22:35:44 GMT seanmartindill2 said:

Feb 5, 2019 9:32:16 GMT Richard Bignell said:

As I said, this was the list Ian recalled - and despite his assurances that his memory is always 100% accurate on things, it really isn't!

We can, quite rightly, discount the three episodes of The Time Meddler, as Ian tracked those down to Nigeria.

Did Ian not say that it was well known that he had those 3 episodes of Time Meddler in his possession as a bargaining tool. That the ones from Nigeria were edited and that when the story was chosen for the repeat in 1991 (2) that he returned the unedited prints.

Actually, your post has made me look back on this information, so I'll revise accordingly!

It looks like Ian did indeed purchase those three prints from The Time Meddler that are on the list. The only one he didn't have at that time was Episode 4, which he managed to acquire from Nigeria to complete the set.

[Roger Stevens]

Hi there,

Just to be clear - I'm Roger Stevens and I bought ALL the Dr Who episodes that this gentleman had at the time. They were given to Ian who ensured that they all returned to the BBC over time. The gentleman had other telerecordings of music shows and some documentary programmes as well, but I didnt have the funds or the interest at the time. But I can assure you that all the WHO episodes he had are now with the BBC. It was thanks to Ian that I realised that some of them were missing (and some not), and Ian deserves credit for his dilligence all that time ago in searching high and low for MEs.

Roger

[Richard Bignell]

Thanks for the clarification, Roger. Can't get much better than that!

The early citation at the beginning of the thread indicates that you paid a figure of £25 for, what was assumed to be nine episodes. Is there any accuracy in that and was that a single film, nine (as stated) or all 21?

[Richard Develyn]

Feb 6, 2019 13:06:14 GMT Roger Stevens said:

Hi there,

Just to be clear - I'm Roger Stevens and I bought ALL the Dr Who episodes that this gentleman had at the time. They were given to Ian who ensured that they all returned to the BBC over time. The gentleman had other telerecordings of music shows and some documentary programmes as well, but I didnt have the funds or the interest at the time. But I can assure you that all the WHO episodes he had are now with the BBC. It was thanks to Ian that I realised that some of them were missing (and some not), and Ian deserves credit for his dilligence all that time ago in searching high and low for MEs.

Roger

First of all, Roger, many thanks for doing what you did. I have watched Snowmen 2 especially many times and it is one of my favourite orphaned episodes.

I know it was a long time ago but I'm curious, when you talked to this gentleman on the train, did you think to yourself that this was a bit of an unusual thing for him to have done, or did you think that this sort of thing was going on all the time? Did you really hit the needle in the haystack, or did you / do you think that had you bumped into a different co-worker back then we might now have a different set of missing episodes recovered? Did this gentleman ever tell you his "story", if you see what I mean, and imply whether any other BBC employees were doing the same thing?

Richard

[Roger Stevens]

Hi again,

In answer to your questions - I think that at the time the BBC was awash with old prints of all kind of stuff. In the film dept these were often answer prints - a first attempte at a graded film from Rank or Kays that was rejected as not good enough and thus unwanted. As far as TRs went, they couold have come from anywhere, and since record-keeping was uncomputerised things just got forgotten about or ended up in film stores or cupboards. That said, I'm pretty sure that the WHO TRs came from Villiers House, and were almost certainly old prints that were unwanted, and used to line up and test projectors and Steenbecks. Villiers House was just as disorganised as anywhere else, and I'm sure that's where the epsiodes that I ultimately purchased came from. Before you starts a stream of new posting about VH, please be assured that it was scoured from top to bottom before the BBC left. Certainly there were staff who suirelled unwanted film prints away, but usually to a viewing theatre, or cutting room. If they took them home it was because they had a projector to view them on, and 16mm equipment was quite expensive - no ebay back then! But nobody really knows who took what.

Yes I paid £25, and it was for all the prints which went to Ian. Hope this all helps... Roger

[Richard Develyn]

Feb 7, 2019 9:53:40 GMT Roger Stevens said:

Hi again,

In answer to your questions - I think that at the time the BBC was awash with old prints of all kind of stuff. In the film dept these were often answer prints - a first attempte at a graded film from Rank or Kays that was rejected as not good enough and thus unwanted. As far as TRs went, they couold have come from anywhere, and since record-keeping was uncomputerised things just got forgotten about or ended up in film stores or cupboards. That said, I'm pretty sure that the WHO TRs came from Villiers House, and were almost certainly old prints that were unwanted, and used to line up and test projectors and Steenbecks. Villiers House was just as disorganised as anywhere else, and I'm sure that's where the epsiodes that I ultimately purchased came from. Before you starts a stream of new posting about VH, please be assured that it was scoured from top to bottom before the BBC left. Certainly there were staff who suirelled unwanted film prints away, but usually to a viewing theatre, or cutting room. If they took them home it was because they had a projector to view them on, and 16mm equipment was quite expensive - no ebay back then! But nobody really knows who took what.

Yes I paid £25, and it was for all the prints which went to Ian. Hope this all helps... Roger

Hi Roger,

Thank you very much for your answer.

Does that mean that the print that you bought of Snowmen 2, for example, was not necessarily part of a set of prints for the whole story? It might just have been a one off to test a projector?

Of course, from our point of view, the more prints that *might* have been struck and the more people that *might* have taken them home - the better!

All the best

Richard

[John Wall]

It’s very difficult to contemplate prints being struck for setup purposes, it’s more likely that one would be “acquired” from the disposal pile. That seems to be how Day of Armageddon survived - it had been returned from Australia and was waiting to be destroyed.

[Roger Stevens]

I'm not saying that prints were made for setup purposes, I'm suggesting that prints that were somehow not wanted or had been discarded were then used to setup/check projectors and steenbecks. Unless one had been at Villiers House in the 1970's it's impossible to know exactly how it was run, but experience of the BBC in the 1980's suggests that it would have been fairly haphazard, and so long as the shelves were cleared as requested, no-one was keeping an eye on exactly where the unwanted material went. Reels of film were certainly NOT ticked off a list as they went into the skip, one by one. It would have been more like clearing out an old wardrobe and bagging everything up for a charity shop. Please don't look for plans, conspiracies, schemes etc. At VH, stuff was just thrown out, and a few episodes (of WHO and other stuff) escaped the purge and ended up with staff. The Abominable Snowmen Part 2 was a single orphaned print that I purchased as part of a group from someone who had no interest in WHO. He was happy with the money, and if he had had any more he would have been more than happy to sell them. And I have checked recently too. Both Richard M and Paul V know who this person is, and he has nothing more - so please don't ask them to check again - he has nothing. Hope this helps (again) Roger

[John Wall]

Feb 7, 2019 12:05:09 GMT Roger Stevens said:

I'm not saying that prints were made for setup purposes, I'm suggesting that prints that were somehow not wanted or had been discarded were then used to setup/check projectors and steenbecks. Unless one had been at Villiers House in the 1970's it's impossible to know exactly how it was run, but experience of the BBC in the 1980's suggests that it would have been fairly haphazard, and so long as the shelves were cleared as requested, no-one was keeping an eye on exactly where the unwanted material went. Reels of film were certainly NOT ticked off a list as they went into the skip, one by one. It would have been more like clearing out an old wardrobe and bagging everything up for a charity shop. Please don't look for plans, conspiracies, schemes etc. At VH, stuff was just thrown out, and a few episodes (of WHO and other stuff) escaped the purge and ended up with staff. The Abominable Snowmen Part 2 was a single orphaned print that I purchased as part of a group from someone who had no interest in WHO. He was happy with the money, and if he had had any more he would have been more than happy to sell them. And I have checked recently too. Both Richard M and Paul V know who this person is, and he has nothing more - so please don't ask them to check again - he has nothing. Hope this helps (again) Roger

There’s nothing new here, we KNOW that some prints returned from abroad, such as Australia, were rescued from the destruction pile. It’s not unique to prints at Villiers House, there are lots of things salvaged from skips, etc.

[Ronnie McDevitt]

Feb 7, 2019 9:53:40 GMT Roger Stevens said:

Hi again,

Certainly there were staff who suirelled unwanted film prints away, but usually to a viewing theatre, or cutting room. If they took them home it was because they had a projector to view them on, and 16mm equipment was quite expensive - no ebay back then! But nobody really knows who took what.











I have always said that people today have no conception of how few people actually owned film projectors in the 1960s and 70s due to the expense involved. And those that did were more likely to have one of the 8mm formats.
It was nothing like the VHS/Betamax boom of the 1980s and the notion that BBC employees were smuggling 16mm prints home in their briefcases on a regular basis is greatly exaggerated.
I am sure there would have been Dr Who fans who saw such films at the BBC but chose not to take them as they had no means of viewing the episodes.
Hindsight is such a wonderful thing,

[John Wall]

People would “rescue” things if they were of interest to them, people they knew or they thought they could sell them. It looks like a modest number of prints came from Australian returns. They appear to have been acquired randomly - such as Airlock and UM2 - and in pairs. It suggests that they were piled up randomly and someone - single or plural - had a bag, briefcase, etc that could accommodate a couple of prints and took the top two.

[Richard Develyn]

Feb 7, 2019 12:05:09 GMT Roger Stevens said:

I'm not saying that prints were made for setup purposes, I'm suggesting that prints that were somehow not wanted or had been discarded were then used to setup/check projectors and steenbecks. Unless one had been at Villiers House in the 1970's it's impossible to know exactly how it was run, but experience of the BBC in the 1980's suggests that it would have been fairly haphazard, and so long as the shelves were cleared as requested, no-one was keeping an eye on exactly where the unwanted material went. Reels of film were certainly NOT ticked off a list as they went into the skip, one by one. It would have been more like clearing out an old wardrobe and bagging everything up for a charity shop. Please don't look for plans, conspiracies, schemes etc. At VH, stuff was just thrown out, and a few episodes (of WHO and other stuff) escaped the purge and ended up with staff. The Abominable Snowmen Part 2 was a single orphaned print that I purchased as part of a group from someone who had no interest in WHO. He was happy with the money, and if he had had any more he would have been more than happy to sell them. And I have checked recently too. Both Richard M and Paul V know who this person is, and he has nothing more - so please don't ask them to check again - he has nothing. Hope this helps (again) Roger

Hi Roger,

Thanks again for your answer.

Don't worry, I'm certainly not imagining any plans or conspiracies. Just curious to know what was going on at the time from someone who was there.

I certainly *do* belong to that group of people who gets pretty obsessed about seeing this stuff found if it exists, because I love it all so much. That's why I ask.

I imagine that it's entirely possible that other odd stuff might be lying in people's attics along the lines of "oh yes, dad (or mum) brought those back when they were working at the BBC thinking they'd watch them one day but they never have - no idea what's on them - we were thinking of giving them to a charity shop", if you see what I mean, but there's not much you can do to hunt that stuff out, and it certainly doesn't reflect any sort of conspiracy.

In fact, rather like the finds in Nigeria, you rather hope conspiracies aren't going on and that stuff might just be lying around :-)

Richard