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Post by Stephen Neve on Jan 29, 2019 10:46:23 GMT
I am certain Phil has more, its just a question of what and how many? The bigger question is will we ever get to see them. We have evidence from recent comedy finds that PM is prepared to sit on finds for at least 5 years before returning. Apart from the fact that there’s nothing other than vague statements and wishful thinking what’s the evidence? There’s also no evidence that he sits on things for years. He got to Jos in late 2011 but spent at least a year fighting red tape and Enemy and Web were back in the UK receiving TLC in early 2013. There may be a delay in announcing things but, as I’ve previously stated, he’s clearly working closely with the copyright holders - the two M&Ws demonstrated that. Those morcambe and wise and Basil Brush episodes, he admitted to having those in 2013 and yet waits until 2018 to hand them back to the BBC.but Web and Enemy actually arrived back in the UK in Feb 2011.
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Post by Stephen Neve on Jan 29, 2019 11:04:13 GMT
We know he found other things - they were shown at MBW. I know he has found other things and that there is still more to come, the problem is people demanding there can't be any more Doctor Who (or anything else) because he would have announced it already. He is currently in the process of revealing his finds and frankly people are being far too impatient. Just wait and see what he has found.
I think there has been a some sort of problem/obstacle that has prevented him from returning stuff,hence the reason for sitting on finds for a long time. The fact that he returned those comedy shows last year and has promised more finds this year suggests that this problem/obstacle has now been overcome, which can only be good news.
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jan 29, 2019 11:38:32 GMT
I am pig sick of all the lying John Wall. That's quite a strong accusation. Who is supposed to have lied?
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Post by John Wall on Jan 29, 2019 12:57:51 GMT
PM has said/implied quite a few things in recent years. For some the Kinks with Basil Brush was the equivalent of Enemy and Web. There is nothing to suggest he’s “held onto” anything. Just because *we* haven’t seen some things doesn’t prove a thing. There are quite a few things “announced” on these boards, but *we* are yet to see them. It’s worth remembering, as has been pointed out here on numerous occasions, that someone can own the physical media but not the copyright to the material; PM can’t make a penny out of anything he’s found - only the copyright holder can. So, he has a print in his hands, what can he do with it? Absolutely nothing because he’s not the BBC or the appropriate ITV company. I can’t actually see any reason why he’d want a recovered print. The absolute minimum that has to be done is to check it, clean it, repair/renew any splices and possibly put it onto a new spool and into a new can. It may also be transferred/scanned. Having done all of that it then has to be stored, that means accessioning and cataloguing it before it starts taking up shelf space. That takes time, and costs money - why should TIEA do that? The answer is very simple, they wouldn’t. We have the report from DWM about the prints of Enemy and Web - PM handed them to PV who applied the necessary TLC, etc, etc. Anybody who works with any sort of an archive - and I do - knows what’s involved. Thanks for your insights, John. They are really valuable. I do know people who work with archives, but that doesn't make me an expert on the subject; I realise that.
The fact Paul Vanezis has done the technical work you described on TIEA finds is well known, e.g. on 11 DW episodes in 2013, 8 light-entertainment/comedies last year, and the 2 Sky of Night episodes in 2011. What is less clear is whether that list comprises all the missing episodes that Phil has found. Actually, come to think of it, there is at least one other we can add to that list: the mushy, unplayable-by-normal-means M&W (S1 ep2), which Paul tried to salvage and has since been partially scanned using X-ray tomographic equipment. Remarks Phil has made over the years suggest (to me) that he has found more than he has revealed so far, but that is evidence not proof. I can't prove that he is telling the truth. But I don't see how we can rule out that TIEA has some sort of storage facility where film cans are sorted and identified, to the extent possible assuming the labels are present and legible, and a subset passed to PV if they are deemed of sufficient interest. Of course it costs money to run even a basic facility let alone a proper archive, but who's to say that Phil doesn't do exactly that? He has said more than once that TIEA's main business is helping foreign stations with their archives. I have no idea whether he charges for that service or not--and it's certainly not something I have any right or need to know--but I'm not going to assume he's lying without incontrovertible evidence.
One question I think it is reasonable to ask--and hopefully you can answer--is whether what we observe of TIEA's activities from afar and/or how Phil describes them is that of a normal archive (irrespective of the "A" in the company's title). Phil himself has not gone into much detail on the subject. I don't blame him for that given what he reckons happened to WoF3. Do normal archives subcontract out the kind of work that PV has been doing for TIEA? (Please excuse my ignorance if they do.) From what I've read in interviews and in the transcripts of what Phil has said at events, I get the impression that TIEA may have a very small staff, with contractors (at home and overseas) hired as and when required. Impressions can be misleading, though.
I hope one day, hopefully sooner rather than later, Phil will be able to publish an up-to-date list of what he has found, whether missing or extant, hopefully including when and where. Then the speculation can cease (maybe!). That would be a good thing. In the meantime, I will continue to hope that he was telling the truth at the BFI (yes, I was there) and not resorting to hyperbole, and that TIEA really has lit the blue touchpaper. If it has, I think a lot of people on here will enjoy the results**. (** No, that's not code for Doctor Who!) Tomorrow I expect to be volunteering at a nearby museum, booking stuff in. Museums/archives are basically storage facilities and, unless someone is paying, operate pretty similarly. The very first question when something arrives at the front door is “Do we want it?” A fair amount is likely to be rejected because it’s a duplicate, etc, etc. So, a pile of film cans arrive and are looked at. There are a lot of prints of US, or maybe ITC, film series. You might offer them to the copyright holder - if they’ll pay the p&p - but they’re more likely to be binned. Having got over that hurdle whatever is left has to be processed. That means booking it in, describing it so that it can be “found” in the database and describing its condition before putting it into archival standard packaging and then putting it on a shelf and recording the exact location on the database. There is then another process to remove something whether it be temporarily, to go on display or be loaned, or permanently. So, in our hypothetical pile of prints there are some BBC or ITV programmes. I’ve previously outlined what has to be done to the prints in terms of inspection, cleaning, repair, etc and that would almost certainly be done before putting them in permanent storage. We know that the BBC, etc have their own specialists and archives so why would they pay - and they would have to - TIEA, or anybody, to do things that their in-house people can do and why would they pay for TIEA to process and store the prints? I’m afraid that I can see no reason whatsoever why anything wouldn’t make its way to the BBC, etc fairly quickly and from what we’ve learnt that seems to be what happens. As to when they’re “announced” and, hopefully, shown that’s something that’s decided, as far as I can see, in discussions with the copyright holder - and that’s what seems to have happened with the two M&Ws.
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Post by scotttelfer on Jan 29, 2019 12:58:52 GMT
Apart from the fact that there’s nothing other than vague statements and wishful thinking what’s the evidence? There’s also no evidence that he sits on things for years. He got to Jos in late 2011 but spent at least a year fighting red tape and Enemy and Web were back in the UK receiving TLC in early 2013. There may be a delay in announcing things but, as I’ve previously stated, he’s clearly working closely with the copyright holders - the two M&Ws demonstrated that. Those morcambe and wise and Basil Brush episodes, he admitted to having those in 2013 and yet waits until 2018 to hand them back to the BBC.but Web and Enemy actually arrived back in the UK in Feb 2011.
Right, where the hell are you getting these dates from? We don't have much information on his searches, but if you are going to accuse him of "admitting" to lying literally a month after saying he searched the Sierra Lone cinema in early 2018 you'd better have a source.
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Post by John Wall on Jan 29, 2019 13:11:51 GMT
He’s been searching broadcasters which in terms of DW is most likely to result in complete stories - Enemy and Web were both complete when he first found them - or, possibly, audition prints - probably an odd episode. Then there is the unfortunate fact that DW prints are extremely rare, some stories only had very few prints struck and, in some cases, we’re extremely lucky to have what we have. The only Audition Prints for 'Who' were from the first few stories of season one. The BBC would have wanted any new broadcaster to buy the series from episode one. So they wouldn't be offering them anything from, say, season four. The fact that there are no countries starting the series from anywhere other than 'An Unearthly Child' proves that was the case. Okay, sure a few new countries did start with Pertwee, but in all cases, those countries were broadcasting in colour, so that was the only reason to start from anything other than with Hartnell. At MBW he specifically mentioned that he was looking for audition prints - but in a general way, nothing specific.
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Post by John Wall on Jan 29, 2019 13:17:52 GMT
I completely agree. Everything I’ve seen suggests that he’s basically an enthusiast like the rest of us. Personally I’m sick and tired of ignorant “fans” - which derives from fanatics! - who believe that they have some sort of “right” to see every recovery within 30 seconds of somebody getting their hands on it. The smears, actual as well as implied, on someone who looks to have spent a fair amount of his own money - and time - on searching, as well as visiting some dangerous places is completely unacceptable imho. I am pig sick of all the lying John Wall. If more episodes have been found and safely recovered then they should be returned to the BBC ready for them to announce at a convenient date. There is no excuse to sit on finds for long periods of time. Nobody has a problem with waiting but when it takes 5 or mores years to give something back you can understand why some fans are frustrated. This is a prime example of the ignorant and arrogant “fan” who hasn’t got a clue but listens to others who are equally ignorant and arrogant. As I’ve explained there is nothing to suggest that anybody is sitting on anything and it looks like “announcement” are decided with the copyright holder.
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Post by John Wall on Jan 29, 2019 13:25:49 GMT
Apart from the fact that there’s nothing other than vague statements and wishful thinking what’s the evidence? There’s also no evidence that he sits on things for years. He got to Jos in late 2011 but spent at least a year fighting red tape and Enemy and Web were back in the UK receiving TLC in early 2013. There may be a delay in announcing things but, as I’ve previously stated, he’s clearly working closely with the copyright holders - the two M&Ws demonstrated that. Those morcambe and wise and Basil Brush episodes, he admitted to having those in 2013 and yet waits until 2018 to hand them back to the BBC.but Web and Enemy actually arrived back in the UK in Feb 2011. Ah... The evidence actually suggests that the two M&Ws were recovered in 2018. There was another, unplayable, recovered earlier. Again, as I’ve repeatedly explained, “announcements” seem to be coordinated with the copyright holder(s). I’m afraid that copyright material can’t easily be shown without the acquiescence of the copyright holder. Everything I’ve seen suggests that he has very good relations with the copyright holders. It’s difficult to see how Enemy and Web could have arrived in the UK in February 2011 when it’s on record that PM didn’t get to Jos until late 2011.
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Post by John Wall on Jan 29, 2019 13:27:45 GMT
I know he has found other things and that there is still more to come, the problem is people demanding there can't be any more Doctor Who (or anything else) because he would have announced it already. He is currently in the process of revealing his finds and frankly people are being far too impatient. Just wait and see what he has found.
I think there has been a some sort of problem/obstacle that has prevented him from returning stuff,hence the reason for sitting on finds for a long time. The fact that he returned those comedy shows last year and has promised more finds this year suggests that this problem/obstacle has now been overcome, which can only be good news. There’s no evidence that he’s sat on anything “for a long time”. That things haven’t been “announced” is a different matter and must involve the copyright holder.
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Post by John Wall on Jan 29, 2019 13:29:12 GMT
I am pig sick of all the lying John Wall. That's quite a strong accusation. Who is supposed to have lied? Obviously PM I’m afraid. This is just typical of a certain element of fandom that gives it a bad name.
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Post by Stephen Neve on Jan 29, 2019 14:51:51 GMT
I am pig sick of all the lying John Wall. If more episodes have been found and safely recovered then they should be returned to the BBC ready for them to announce at a convenient date. There is no excuse to sit on finds for long periods of time. Nobody has a problem with waiting but when it takes 5 or mores years to give something back you can understand why some fans are frustrated. This is a prime example of the ignorant and arrogant “fan” who hasn’t got a clue but listens to others who are equally ignorant and arrogant. As I’ve explained there is nothing to suggest that anybody is sitting on anything and it looks like “announcement” are decided with the copyright holder. You have not learned anything john. Still listening to those who were economical with the truth in 2013 when it came to the Web and Enemy finds are you, how many times has the Web 3 story changed? I prefer to listen to people i know and trust rather than 1980's fan boys. Sorry you have a problem with that.
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Post by John Wall on Jan 29, 2019 15:09:44 GMT
This is a prime example of the ignorant and arrogant “fan” who hasn’t got a clue but listens to others who are equally ignorant and arrogant. As I’ve explained there is nothing to suggest that anybody is sitting on anything and it looks like “announcement” are decided with the copyright holder. You have not learned anything john. Still listening to those who were economical with the truth in 2013 when it came to the Web and Enemy finds are you, how many times has the Web 3 story changed? I prefer to listen to people i know and trust rather than 1980's fan boys. Sorry you have a problem with that. Who was “economical with the truth” in 2013? You do know that defamation applies to MBs like this. Enemy and Web were found in late 2011 and got back to the UK in early 2013. They were then restored, picture and sound, before being released. Perhaps you’d care to detail how the Web 3 story has changed. All I’ve heard is a consistent story that it was there in late 2011 but had subsequently vanished when PM had sorted out the red tape. He knows, or thinks he knows, who’s got it and has been trying to recover it. There is clearly still hope otherwise there would have been a SE with animation by now. Unfortunately you “trust” those who are as ignorant and arrogant as yourself and I’m very sorry that you like one of the same programsmes as I do.
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Post by zaqwilson on Jan 29, 2019 15:49:06 GMT
Thread name "Where do we go from here?" apparently, to further infighting.
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Post by John Wall on Jan 29, 2019 15:56:50 GMT
Thread name "Where do we go from here?" apparently, to further infighting. Unfortunately yes 😕
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Post by Stephen Neve on Jan 29, 2019 15:59:17 GMT
Enemy and Web were found in late 2011 and got back to the UK in early 2013. They were then restored, picture and sound, before being released. Perhaps you’d care to detail how the Web 3 story has changed. All I’ve heard is a consistent story that it was there in late 2011 but had subsequently vanished when PM had sorted out the red tape. If you read DWM around the time of the October reveal you will see how Phil claimed Web 3 was not on the shelf with the rest. I even asked questions on here about it at the time and got threatened with a little holiday away from the forum (a ban)if i asked any further. Two years later the story changes to it was on the shelf with the rest but went missing.
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