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Post by Chris Wilkinson on Jan 27, 2019 11:41:01 GMT
Even if there are no more missing Doctor Who episodes to be unveiled at this moment in time, I am still looking forward to more light being shed onto the ordered chaos of the bicycling chain system. It would be great to know which prints were moved where and at what times. From the 2016 Starburst interview, PM said he viewed a log book in Nigeria that recorded information about all the acquisitions of a particular station including dates and locations; it'd be great if he found similar items elsewhere, though Nigeria has been a treasure trove for missing episode recoveries and information. I'd want also to know what PM found when he sent a JCB into the desert to dig up a load of films and videotapes - that certainly would have been a spectacle. Nonetheless, I believe PM is doing a careful but thorough job of investigating every available avenue and his efforts are to be highly admired.
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Post by Vaughan Stanger on Jan 27, 2019 13:05:40 GMT
Didn't Phil announce that Basil Brush find in 2013 and sit on it until December? I don’t know when it was announced. However, apart from Enemy and Web nothing was shown until MBW afaik. There was probably no interest in broadcasting it or releasing it on DVD so nothing happened. Why would Phil say "we're going to light the blue touch paper" at the BFI, in front of about 300 people, if he didn't have something pretty substantial to reveal in due course? That doesn't imply it's Doctor Who, but it ought to be something notable, surely? If he was showboating or winding people up he's going to make himself look like an idiot. People with cooler heads and considerable expertise in this field do have his ear even if they don't know what he's got left to reveal. I think the story is more complex than it sometimes seems to those of us not in the know. I doubt we've heard about everything interesting Phil found in Jos. As far as I know, he's not given sources for all of the episodes announced in 2018 yet, doubtless for good reasons. The two M&W episodes came from the abandoned Sierra Leone cinema, the Citizen James from Monaco TV, the others...?
Phil has previously mentioned that he's found a missing Troubleshooters episode. He has also said that the Basil Brush episode that was referred to in a newspaper article not long after the 2013 Doctor Who announcement was a cut version of the one that was announced last year. So he held onto the former for a long time. I suspect he found other MEs (again, not necessarily DW) in the last ten years that haven't been announced yet. Two Sky at Night episodes were announced in 2011, although not linked to Phil until later, and one (Bases on the Moon) was made available on the BBC website. They were found in Nigeria, but not at Jos (IIRC). So that would be at least four locations where he found MEs.
In summary, I recommend patience. Let's see what he comes up with this year. I think that will give us a good idea about the size and scope of the totality of his finds.
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Post by John Wall on Jan 27, 2019 20:29:00 GMT
I don’t know when it was announced. However, apart from Enemy and Web nothing was shown until MBW afaik. There was probably no interest in broadcasting it or releasing it on DVD so nothing happened. Why would Phil say "we're going to light the blue touch paper" at the BFI, in front of about 300 people, if he didn't have something pretty substantial to reveal in due course? That doesn't imply it's Doctor Who, but it ought to be something notable, surely? If he was showboating or winding people up he's going to make himself look like an idiot. People with cooler heads and considerable expertise in this field do have his ear even if they don't know what he's got left to reveal. I think the story is more complex than it sometimes seems to those of us not in the know. I doubt we've heard about everything interesting Phil found in Jos. As far as I know, he's not given sources for all of the episodes announced in 2018 yet, doubtless for good reasons. The two M&W episodes came from the abandoned Sierra Leone cinema, the Citizen James from Monaco TV, the others...?
Phil has previously mentioned that he's found a missing Troubleshooters episode. He has also said that the Basil Brush episode that was referred to in a newspaper article not long after the 2013 Doctor Who announcement was a cut version of the one that was announced last year. So he held onto the former for a long time. I suspect he found other MEs (again, not necessarily DW) in the last ten years that haven't been announced yet. Two Sky at Night episodes were announced in 2011, although not linked to Phil until later, and one (Bases on the Moon) was made available on the BBC website. They were found in Nigeria, but not at Jos (IIRC). So that would be at least four locations where he found MEs.
In summary, I recommend patience. Let's see what he comes up with this year. I think that will give us a good idea about the size and scope of the totality of his finds. PM has said/implied quite a few things in recent years. For some the Kinks with Basil Brush was the equivalent of Enemy and Web. There is nothing to suggest he’s “held onto” anything. Just because *we* haven’t seen some things doesn’t prove a thing. There are quite a few things “announced” on these boards, but *we* are yet to see them. It’s worth remembering, as has been pointed out here on numerous occasions, that someone can own the physical media but not the copyright to the material; PM can’t make a penny out of anything he’s found - only the copyright holder can. So, he has a print in his hands, what can he do with it? Absolutely nothing because he’s not the BBC or the appropriate ITV company. I can’t actually see any reason why he’d want a recovered print. The absolute minimum that has to be done is to check it, clean it, repair/renew any splices and possibly put it onto a new spool and into a new can. It may also be transferred/scanned. Having done all of that it then has to be stored, that means accessioning and cataloguing it before it starts taking up shelf space. That takes time, and costs money - why should TIEA do that? The answer is very simple, they wouldn’t. We have the report from DWM about the prints of Enemy and Web - PM handed them to PV who applied the necessary TLC, etc, etc. Anybody who works with any sort of an archive - and I do - knows what’s involved.
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Post by Luke Sherlaw on Jan 27, 2019 21:00:36 GMT
It honestly baffles me that people can slag Phil Morris off. The guy has already done us a huge service by recovering 2 stories (1 of which was a consistent top performer in "Which serial would you most want found?" polls, the other being a discovered gem that showed Troughton's acting off in a different light).
I would encourage Phil to continue what he's doing, if he's retaining stuff on the basis that he doesn't want his work jeopardised then i'd say that's a fair move. At the end of the day, I think he wants this stuff returned as much as we do, arguably even more so to be going out there and trying to find it. Let him get on with it.
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Post by John Wall on Jan 27, 2019 21:58:50 GMT
It honestly baffles me that people can slag Phil Morris off. The guy has already done us a huge service by recovering 2 stories (1 of which was a consistent top performer in "Which serial would you most want found?" polls, the other being a discovered gem that showed Troughton's acting off in a different light). I would encourage Phil to continue what he's doing, if he's retaining stuff on the basis that he doesn't want his work jeopardised then i'd say that's a fair move. At the end of the day, I think he wants this stuff returned as much as we do, arguably even more so to be going out there and trying to find it. Let him get on with it. I completely agree. Everything I’ve seen suggests that he’s basically an enthusiast like the rest of us. Personally I’m sick and tired of ignorant “fans” - which derives from fanatics! - who believe that they have some sort of “right” to see every recovery within 30 seconds of somebody getting their hands on it. The smears, actual as well as implied, on someone who looks to have spent a fair amount of his own money - and time - on searching, as well as visiting some dangerous places is completely unacceptable imho.
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Post by Vaughan Stanger on Jan 27, 2019 22:06:29 GMT
Why would Phil say "we're going to light the blue touch paper" at the BFI, in front of about 300 people, if he didn't have something pretty substantial to reveal in due course? That doesn't imply it's Doctor Who, but it ought to be something notable, surely? If he was showboating or winding people up he's going to make himself look like an idiot. People with cooler heads and considerable expertise in this field do have his ear even if they don't know what he's got left to reveal. I think the story is more complex than it sometimes seems to those of us not in the know. I doubt we've heard about everything interesting Phil found in Jos. As far as I know, he's not given sources for all of the episodes announced in 2018 yet, doubtless for good reasons. The two M&W episodes came from the abandoned Sierra Leone cinema, the Citizen James from Monaco TV, the others...?
Phil has previously mentioned that he's found a missing Troubleshooters episode. He has also said that the Basil Brush episode that was referred to in a newspaper article not long after the 2013 Doctor Who announcement was a cut version of the one that was announced last year. So he held onto the former for a long time. I suspect he found other MEs (again, not necessarily DW) in the last ten years that haven't been announced yet. Two Sky at Night episodes were announced in 2011, although not linked to Phil until later, and one (Bases on the Moon) was made available on the BBC website. They were found in Nigeria, but not at Jos (IIRC). So that would be at least four locations where he found MEs.
In summary, I recommend patience. Let's see what he comes up with this year. I think that will give us a good idea about the size and scope of the totality of his finds. PM has said/implied quite a few things in recent years. For some the Kinks with Basil Brush was the equivalent of Enemy and Web. There is nothing to suggest he’s “held onto” anything. Just because *we* haven’t seen some things doesn’t prove a thing. There are quite a few things “announced” on these boards, but *we* are yet to see them. It’s worth remembering, as has been pointed out here on numerous occasions, that someone can own the physical media but not the copyright to the material; PM can’t make a penny out of anything he’s found - only the copyright holder can. So, he has a print in his hands, what can he do with it? Absolutely nothing because he’s not the BBC or the appropriate ITV company. I can’t actually see any reason why he’d want a recovered print. The absolute minimum that has to be done is to check it, clean it, repair/renew any splices and possibly put it onto a new spool and into a new can. It may also be transferred/scanned. Having done all of that it then has to be stored, that means accessioning and cataloguing it before it starts taking up shelf space. That takes time, and costs money - why should TIEA do that? The answer is very simple, they wouldn’t. We have the report from DWM about the prints of Enemy and Web - PM handed them to PV who applied the necessary TLC, etc, etc. Anybody who works with any sort of an archive - and I do - knows what’s involved. Thanks for your insights, John. They are really valuable. I do know people who work with archives, but that doesn't make me an expert on the subject; I realise that.
The fact Paul Vanezis has done the technical work you described on TIEA finds is well known, e.g. on 11 DW episodes in 2013, 8 light-entertainment/comedies last year, and the 2 Sky of Night episodes in 2011. What is less clear is whether that list comprises all the missing episodes that Phil has found. Actually, come to think of it, there is at least one other we can add to that list: the mushy, unplayable-by-normal-means M&W (S1 ep2), which Paul tried to salvage and has since been partially scanned using X-ray tomographic equipment. Remarks Phil has made over the years suggest (to me) that he has found more than he has revealed so far, but that is evidence not proof. I can't prove that he is telling the truth. But I don't see how we can rule out that TIEA has some sort of storage facility where film cans are sorted and identified, to the extent possible assuming the labels are present and legible, and a subset passed to PV if they are deemed of sufficient interest. Of course it costs money to run even a basic facility let alone a proper archive, but who's to say that Phil doesn't do exactly that? He has said more than once that TIEA's main business is helping foreign stations with their archives. I have no idea whether he charges for that service or not--and it's certainly not something I have any right or need to know--but I'm not going to assume he's lying without incontrovertible evidence.
One question I think it is reasonable to ask--and hopefully you can answer--is whether what we observe of TIEA's activities from afar and/or how Phil describes them is that of a normal archive (irrespective of the "A" in the company's title). Phil himself has not gone into much detail on the subject. I don't blame him for that given what he reckons happened to WoF3. Do normal archives subcontract out the kind of work that PV has been doing for TIEA? (Please excuse my ignorance if they do.) From what I've read in interviews and in the transcripts of what Phil has said at events, I get the impression that TIEA may have a very small staff, with contractors (at home and overseas) hired as and when required. Impressions can be misleading, though.
I hope one day, hopefully sooner rather than later, Phil will be able to publish an up-to-date list of what he has found, whether missing or extant, hopefully including when and where. Then the speculation can cease (maybe!). That would be a good thing. In the meantime, I will continue to hope that he was telling the truth at the BFI (yes, I was there) and not resorting to hyperbole, and that TIEA really has lit the blue touchpaper. If it has, I think a lot of people on here will enjoy the results**. (** No, that's not code for Doctor Who!)
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Post by lousingh on Jan 28, 2019 2:37:28 GMT
As much as I would like Phil et al. to tell us everything, I can think of several reasons for him and everyone else "in the know" to refrain from doing so.
IMHO, the most delicate situation would be if he were aware of multiple sources with complimentary missing episodes; say one person has episodes 1 and 2 of "The Highlanders", another person has episodes 3 and 4 of "The Highlanders", and neither person knows of the other's existence. He has to keep them both believing they have orphans so that neither can hold his set hostage.
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Post by Vaughan Stanger on Jan 28, 2019 8:52:49 GMT
As much as I would like Phil et al. to tell us everything, I can think of several reasons for him and everyone else "in the know" to refrain from doing so. IMHO, the most delicate situation would be if he were aware of multiple sources with complimentary missing episodes; say one person has episodes 1 and 2 of "The Highlanders", another person has episodes 3 and 4 of "The Highlanders", and neither person knows of the other's existence. He has to keep them both believing they have orphans so that neither can hold his set hostage. When I read that I thought what an unlikely, if potentially delightful, scenario, but the truth is that most if not all ME finds could be described as unlikely. Kaleidoscope's Avengers S1 find is a spectacular and recent case in point. There are other possible reasons for secrecy. One Phil has previously mentioned is the need to protect contractors working in a dangerous region of a country. Obviously, it's his call regarding what information he can safely release and when. There may also be reasons why a copyright owner might not want information released, at least until they feel the time is right. Again, it's their call. All rather frustrating for those of us who'd like to know more, but that's life. Anyway, here's hoping the BFI and BBC have some exciting, TEIA-sourced recoveries to announce in the reasonably near future. We can always compile our own lists.
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Post by mattg on Jan 28, 2019 9:25:37 GMT
As much as I would like Phil et al. to tell us everything, I can think of several reasons for him and everyone else "in the know" to refrain from doing so. IMHO, the most delicate situation would be if he were aware of multiple sources with complimentary missing episodes; say one person has episodes 1 and 2 of "The Highlanders", another person has episodes 3 and 4 of "The Highlanders", and neither person knows of the other's existence. He has to keep them both believing they have orphans so that neither can hold his set hostage. Precisely....which makes some of Phil's cryptic antics post 2013 a little difficult to understand as one would think refraining from uttering the likes of "when you least expect it" and "the wind is blowing in the right direction" et al was the wiser course of action! After all such teasing comments ultimately only fuel speculation rather than dissipate it. The latter, as you say, must surely be the shrewder policy....
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Simon Collis
Member
I have started to dream of lost things
Posts: 536
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Post by Simon Collis on Jan 28, 2019 13:28:08 GMT
As much as I would like Phil et al. to tell us everything, I can think of several reasons for him and everyone else "in the know" to refrain from doing so. IMHO, the most delicate situation would be if he were aware of multiple sources with complimentary missing episodes; say one person has episodes 1 and 2 of "The Highlanders", another person has episodes 3 and 4 of "The Highlanders", and neither person knows of the other's existence. He has to keep them both believing they have orphans so that neither can hold his set hostage. Precisely....which makes some of Phil's cryptic antics post 2013 a little difficult to understand as one would think refraining from uttering the likes of "when you least expect it" and "the wind is blowing in the right direction" et al was the wiser course of action! After all such teasing comments ultimately only fuel speculation rather than dissipate it. The latter, as you say, must surely be the shrewder policy.... I think if he announced “this it, I’m done, game over” people would still be expecting more, or even be angry with him for stopping. Really those statements essentially say “I’m still looking and I’m optimistic for more successes”, but generically enough it gives nothing away. (Actually now I think about it, it says even less than my reformulation of it, which is clever...)
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Post by mattg on Jan 28, 2019 23:34:45 GMT
Precisely....which makes some of Phil's cryptic antics post 2013 a little difficult to understand as one would think refraining from uttering the likes of "when you least expect it" and "the wind is blowing in the right direction" et al was the wiser course of action! After all such teasing comments ultimately only fuel speculation rather than dissipate it. The latter, as you say, must surely be the shrewder policy.... I think if he announced “this it, I’m done, game over” people would still be expecting more, or even be angry with him for stopping. Really those statements essentially say “I’m still looking and I’m optimistic for more successes”, but generically enough it gives nothing away. (Actually now I think about it, it says even less than my reformulation of it, which is clever...) Oh absolutely, some fans would remain stubbornly convinced Phil had more no matter how explicit he might be to the contrary but that would be their problem for which he could not be held proportionately responsible for. That said I'm genuinely not trying to ferment ill feeling towards Phil, nor diminish his incredible accomplishments with such mild critique of his past actions. Yet when he knows full well how certain parts of Who fandom 'dangle' on his every word/action (and how intrusive they are in his personal affairs), nonsensically posting an image on social media from the mostly missing Evil of the Daleks (and similar such antics) instead of the first Tardis crew to mark the show's annual, November anniversary really doesn't seem like the shrewdest course of action (as he did a couple of years ago)! As I say, such mischief only exacerbates fan expectations/scrutiny, not diffuse them, when perhaps the latter is far more desirable for reasons already outlined. Regardless, much of what I've alluded to admittedly occurred a few years ago now and in truth Phil seems rather more taciturn these days. Perhaps the missing episode saga has been a bit of a learning curve for all of us?!
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Post by John Wall on Jan 29, 2019 0:20:41 GMT
As much as I would like Phil et al. to tell us everything, I can think of several reasons for him and everyone else "in the know" to refrain from doing so. IMHO, the most delicate situation would be if he were aware of multiple sources with complimentary missing episodes; say one person has episodes 1 and 2 of "The Highlanders", another person has episodes 3 and 4 of "The Highlanders", and neither person knows of the other's existence. He has to keep them both believing they have orphans so that neither can hold his set hostage. Precisely....which makes some of Phil's cryptic antics post 2013 a little difficult to understand as one would think refraining from uttering the likes of "when you least expect it" and "the wind is blowing in the right direction" et al was the wiser course of action! After all such teasing comments ultimately only fuel speculation rather than dissipate it. The latter, as you say, must surely be the shrewder policy.... This well illustrates what I’ve been talking about - scenarios conjured up to try and explain why PM hasn’t returned prints he doesn’t have. He’s been searching broadcasters which in terms of DW is most likely to result in complete stories - Enemy and Web were both complete when he first found them - or, possibly, audition prints - probably an odd episode. Then there is the unfortunate fact that DW prints are extremely rare, some stories only had very few prints struck and, in some cases, we’re extremely lucky to have what we have. Finally it’s important to note that he’s not involved wth collectors. This sort of nonsense doesn’t help anybody.
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jan 29, 2019 4:27:36 GMT
He’s been searching broadcasters which in terms of DW is most likely to result in complete stories - Enemy and Web were both complete when he first found them - or, possibly, audition prints - probably an odd episode. Then there is the unfortunate fact that DW prints are extremely rare, some stories only had very few prints struck and, in some cases, we’re extremely lucky to have what we have. The only Audition Prints for 'Who' were from the first few stories of season one. The BBC would have wanted any new broadcaster to buy the series from episode one. So they wouldn't be offering them anything from, say, season four. The fact that there are no countries starting the series from anywhere other than 'An Unearthly Child' proves that was the case. Okay, sure a few new countries did start with Pertwee, but in all cases, those countries were broadcasting in colour, so that was the only reason to start from anything other than with Hartnell.
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Post by martinjwills on Jan 29, 2019 10:20:02 GMT
Also the BBC would send on other used prints eg eps 1&2 Marco Polo to other possible sales, and the prints to ZDF in Germany, so wouldnt produce new audition prints, they could also have sent out ones from the pile at Villiers in 1975 to countries still broadcasting in B&W
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Post by Stephen Neve on Jan 29, 2019 10:32:14 GMT
It honestly baffles me that people can slag Phil Morris off. The guy has already done us a huge service by recovering 2 stories (1 of which was a consistent top performer in "Which serial would you most want found?" polls, the other being a discovered gem that showed Troughton's acting off in a different light). I would encourage Phil to continue what he's doing, if he's retaining stuff on the basis that he doesn't want his work jeopardised then i'd say that's a fair move. At the end of the day, I think he wants this stuff returned as much as we do, arguably even more so to be going out there and trying to find it. Let him get on with it. I completely agree. Everything I’ve seen suggests that he’s basically an enthusiast like the rest of us. Personally I’m sick and tired of ignorant “fans” - which derives from fanatics! - who believe that they have some sort of “right” to see every recovery within 30 seconds of somebody getting their hands on it. The smears, actual as well as implied, on someone who looks to have spent a fair amount of his own money - and time - on searching, as well as visiting some dangerous places is completely unacceptable imho. I am pig sick of all the lying John Wall. If more episodes have been found and safely recovered then they should be returned to the BBC ready for them to announce at a convenient date. There is no excuse to sit on finds for long periods of time. Nobody has a problem with waiting but when it takes 5 or mores years to give something back you can understand why some fans are frustrated.
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