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Post by John Wall on Jan 13, 2019 0:19:10 GMT
This makes sense. Doubt the time and money would be spent in anticipation, but I follow the reasoning. TY for feedback. The theory does not come from mere unresearched idle speculation as some would lead people to believe. From what I understand of it all, The DMP print returns lack certain physical details that other Australia returns have that distinguish them. Stickers, leaders etc. Not definitive proof, but enough to ask the legitamite question of why are they different than other Australian returns? Perhaps because they are not? A: If the DMP prints are different prints than the Australian prints, which would explain the differences, why make two? The best reason for a second set, also, as stated above in the quote; anticipation of sales. What was not mentioned in the quote is there was a very short turnaround for certain season two countries, as they were broadcasting the same episodes within weeks of each other. If Australia approved DMP, and the BBC had no reason to believe they wouldn't, a second set would be needed quickly to prevent broadcast delays if they were picked up in those countries. With Australia's rejection it pretty much condemned DMP to never be broadcasted outside the UK. And without the Daleks being a hook for Season three sales, it could be a factor why it wasn't bought in those respected countries. B: The differences in the DMP prints is; Australia Rejected it outright, and just sent it back as is, and didn't bother with changing leaders or lables... Also a valid arguement. I hope some evidence will come forward to confirm it either way. If we knew for sure that there was only one set, then Damian's search ,mentioned here, could be simplified drasticlly. Do I personally believe that the surviving prints of DMP are from the Australia returns, or not? Truth is, I do not know either way. However I'm not going to close my mind to the possibility as there is evidence enough to ask the question "could there be two different sets?" If Damian finds them in Australia, then that would be fantastic proof. I personally would not hold my breath though. We’ve seen this sort of argument on many occasions. It’s important to remember that DW was a very small percentage of Enterprises overseas sales, it wasn’t seen as in any way “special”. A 16mm print in a can is probably about 3/4 inch (about 19mm) wide. DMP, including MTTU but excluding FOS, is twelve episodes so that’s about eight inches (400mm) of shelf space - if stored vertically. If prints of DW are being struck in anticipation of sales then other prints must also be being struck - and each takes up 3/4 inch (19mm) of shelf space. It doesn’t really matter whether they’re stored vertically or horizontally, they take up a certain amount of storage space. Differences between the DMP prints and other prints from Australia actually support them being Australian. This is because they were sent to Australia, viewed and rejected - and then presumably returned. It would not be expected that they would have the accoutrements of prints that had been broadcast and then returned to Auntie. To me the best explanation for the DMP prints is that they were returned from Australia.
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jan 13, 2019 0:48:17 GMT
Enterprises wouldn't have struck off a second set in anticipation of the second sale because, as John points out, they'd have to store all those films for however many months until a second sale was finalised. And since DW was sold in packages, then it wouldn't be just the 11 DMP prints sitting on the shelf, but also Galaxy 4, Myth Makers, Massacre, Ark, Toymaker, Gunfighters, Savages, War Machines and Smugglers = that's 36 other prints, 47 in total. That is *a lot* of shelf space, in what was a very small storage area in the basement at Villiers House.
Films were struck to order or were - the preferred option - bicycled from country to country, a system that we know worked very well.
Barbados was the second sale of the season 3 'package' - and that was in August 1967, 17 months after DMP had been offered to Australia, and five months after it had been withdrawn from sale.
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Post by John Wall on Jan 13, 2019 0:51:46 GMT
Enterprises wouldn't have struck off a second set in anticipation of the second sale because, as John points out, they'd have to store all those films for however many months. And since DW was sold in packages, then it wouldn't be just the 11 DMP prints sitting on the shelf, but also Galaxy 4, Myth Makers, Massacre, Ark, Toymaker, Gunfighters, Savages, War Machines and Smugglers = that's 36 other prints, 47 in total. That is *a lot* of shelf space, in what was a very small storage area in the basement at Villiers House. Films were struck to order or were - the preferred option - bicycled from country to country, a system that we know worked very well. John agrees with Jon 🍺
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Post by Ralph Rose on Jan 13, 2019 2:14:59 GMT
It’s possible to suggest that the BBC, not willing to be inundated, requested one set back but requested that the others be destroyed in Australia – but why when all could have been destroyed in Australia? Were the other sets simply forgotten about? I’d like to see if anything more can come of this. That may actually explain some things, like the differences in the DMP returns compared to other Australian returns. Which sets up another plausible theory of multiple prints of other stories, but not of DMP. It actually eliminates another set of the unbroadcasted DMP story. Which is much more feasable.
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Post by Ralph Rose on Jan 13, 2019 2:45:14 GMT
We’ve seen this sort of argument on many occasions. It’s important to remember that DW was a very small percentage of Enterprises overseas sales, it wasn’t seen as in any way “special”. A 16mm print in a can is probably about 3/4 inch (about 19mm) wide. DMP, including MTTU but excluding FOS, is twelve episodes so that’s about eight inches (400mm) of shelf space - if stored vertically. If prints of DW are being struck in anticipation of sales then other prints must also be being struck - and each takes up 3/4 inch (19mm) of shelf space. It doesn’t really matter whether they’re stored vertically or horizontally, they take up a certain amount of storage space. Differences between the DMP prints and other prints from Australia actually support them being Australian. This is because they were sent to Australia, viewed and rejected - and then presumably returned. It would not be expected that they would have the accoutrements of prints that had been broadcast and then returned to Auntie. To me the best explanation for the DMP prints is that they were returned from Australia. We do know that multiple prints were struck for Galaxy Four and The Myth Makers. We also know that there is a precedent for BW prints to be struck in anticipation. The season 11 Pertwee's as example that we do have some records for. Rejected By Australia when switching to color. How long did those prints stay on the shelf? Unknown... As a sidenote, with the DMP differences, if Australia were making their own dupes, that would explain some things. Attach their own leaders to the originals, make the dupes with their own leaders etc... I still wait in anticipation to see what Damian Shanahan comes up with ... but not holding my breath.
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Post by John Wall on Jan 13, 2019 9:45:27 GMT
We’ve seen this sort of argument on many occasions. It’s important to remember that DW was a very small percentage of Enterprises overseas sales, it wasn’t seen as in any way “special”. A 16mm print in a can is probably about 3/4 inch (about 19mm) wide. DMP, including MTTU but excluding FOS, is twelve episodes so that’s about eight inches (400mm) of shelf space - if stored vertically. If prints of DW are being struck in anticipation of sales then other prints must also be being struck - and each takes up 3/4 inch (19mm) of shelf space. It doesn’t really matter whether they’re stored vertically or horizontally, they take up a certain amount of storage space. Differences between the DMP prints and other prints from Australia actually support them being Australian. This is because they were sent to Australia, viewed and rejected - and then presumably returned. It would not be expected that they would have the accoutrements of prints that had been broadcast and then returned to Auntie. To me the best explanation for the DMP prints is that they were returned from Australia. We do know that multiple prints were struck for Galaxy Four and The Myth Makers. We also know that there is a precedent for BW prints to be struck in anticipation. The season 11 Pertwee's as example that we do have some records for. Rejected By Australia when switching to color. How long did those prints stay on the shelf? Unknown... As a sidenote, with the DMP differences, if Australia were making their own dupes, that would explain some things. Attach their own leaders to the originals, make the dupes with their own leaders etc... I still wait in anticipation to see what Damian Shanahan comes up with ... but not holding my breath. Galaxy Four and The Myth Makers were sold abroad - DMP wasn’t. Why would Australia need dupes? gallifreybase.com/w/index.php/Australia“In the early years of television broadcasts, each state had its own regional scheduling, which meant that different episodes of Doctor Who aired on different days, often many months apart. On rare occasions, the same episode aired on the same day but in different states, which meant that multiple prints of some episodes may have existed, although there were other methods by which 'dual' transmissions across the different states could be achieved.”
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Post by Ralph Rose on Jan 13, 2019 18:52:08 GMT
Why would Australia need dupes? gallifreybase.com/w/index.php/Australia“In the early years of television broadcasts, each state had its own regional scheduling, which meant that different episodes of Doctor Who aired on different days, often many months apart. On rare occasions, the same episode aired on the same day but in different states, which meant that multiple prints of some episodes may have existed, although there were other methods by which 'dual' transmissions across the different states could be achieved.” As far as Galaxy Four and Myth Makers is concerned, were the prints made before or after the first sale??? I agree that if Australia needed dupes it would be on a one off basis as your posting suggests. It would not be for every print offered to them. The television industry as a rule is in buisness to make money, or at the very least not to waste it. Unfortunately, the BBC has a track record of not always being wise about their practices in the past. I'd also like to point out that this theory is not my original idea. The original idea came from one of the members of the Restoration Team. Peter Crocker if I'm not mistaken??? I do not remember... although I do remember it was debated at the time between the team, similarly as it is in this thread. I just support the theory as being a plausible explanation. Your theory is just as plausible. I'm just in the mindset of not discounting either one of them, untill there is some proof to support one way or the other.
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jan 13, 2019 20:37:56 GMT
As far as Galaxy Four and Myth Makers is concerned, were the prints made before or after the first sale??? The first set of prints were struck after the ABC had accepted the BBC's offer. The second set would have been made when the second sale (to Barbados) had been finalised, which would have been mid-1967. The BBC wouldn't have known how many and which stories Barbados would have wanted until the order slips came through, and thus struck the set for Barbados based on the order (which was for 36 episodes - Galaxy 4 through to The Smugglers, sans the 13 Dalek episodes). Again, the BBC wasn't in the habit of striking prints in anticipation of future orders, as they would have to store them indefinitely. And as there was no guarantee / certainty of future orders - even to Australia - it would have been very wasteful in terms of film stock and processing costs (and shelving space!) to have struck prints in advance. A film print cost around ten pounds in those days, so in terms of 'season 3', striking prints in advance would be a 490 pound investment for which there might not be any return. Even the BBC wouldn't have been that loose with its money.
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Post by John Wall on Jan 13, 2019 21:36:15 GMT
It’s worth remembering that some of the very small broadcasters weren’t paying very much per episode - a few tens of pounds each in the 1960s. That explains the bicycling system, to spread the cost of the print across several broadcasters.
The bicycling system also removed the need to store prints in London, get foreign broadcasters to store them - in some casss for years. There must have been the mother of all card index systems at Enterprises, if that had survived.....
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Post by Robert Lia on Jan 13, 2019 21:38:41 GMT
I still cant believe the Believe the BBC sent there only positive print to Australia. But then again I guess they still had a full set of negatives at the time as well as the 405 line video tapes were still in existence so anything is possible.
Then again DMP 5 and 10 were found along with a black and white episode of "warship" that was returned from Australia. Considering the time between the two film prints being made, I still find it interesting that they were discovered together. . . ?
So did ABC hold DMP into the 1970's and return them with the black and white "Warship" or is it a big coincidence ?
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Post by John Wall on Jan 13, 2019 21:52:34 GMT
I still cant believe the Believe the BBC sent there only positive print to Australia. But then again I guess they still had a full set of negatives at the time as well as the 405 line video tapes were still in existence so anything is possible. Then again DMP 5 and 10 were found along with a black and white episode of "warship" that was returned from Australia. Considering the time between the two film prints being made, I still find it interesting that they were discovered together. . . ? So did ABC hold DMP into the 1970's and return them with the black and white "Warship" or is it a big coincidence ? Why would the BBC want positives when they had the negatives? If they struck, and kept, a set of positives that doubles the storage requirements.
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jan 13, 2019 21:53:39 GMT
I still cant believe the Believe the BBC sent there only positive print to Australia. It wasn't their only positive - it was just the set struck for Australia. As you say, they still had the negs from which to create more if required. The BBC's office in Sydney would have returned the unwanted prints to London in 1967. The unwanted Warship audition print would have been sent back in 1974. That those prints of ex-Australian along with lots of non-Australia stuff ended up together in the Mormon Church is very likely a coincidence.
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Post by Robert Lia on Jan 13, 2019 22:53:19 GMT
OK if it wasn't there only "positive" and I am referring to film prints (not the negatives or 405 line PAL video) struck for the ABC then there were two sets of film print made after all back in the day.
A pity we never learned the name of the "Warship" episode
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jan 13, 2019 23:08:03 GMT
OK if it wasn't there only "positive" and I am referring to film prints (not the negatives or 405 line PAL video) struck for the ABC then there were two sets of film print made after all back in the day. The first set - including MTTU and DMP - was sent to Australia in early 1966. The second set - excluding MTTU and DMP - was sent to Barbados in mid-1967. This likely went to Zambia in early 68, then to Sierra Leone in 1970. NZ got set three - also excluding MTTU/DMP - in mid-68. This was sent to Singapore in 1972. So, that's three sets in total, struck to order, but only the first included MTTU and DMP.
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Post by Robert Lia on Jan 13, 2019 23:21:29 GMT
I was only referring to sets of "positives" from The Dalek's Master Plan that were made, not sets of the entire third series and distributed abroad
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