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Post by Paul Vanezis on Jan 3, 2019 2:06:37 GMT
Wow! Fantastic find, and as a bonus we'll have 405 to 625 conversion without loss of quality at last. What's the format of these? Are they skip field or full 405 line? Hi Sue, CV2000 recordings are skip field. The process outlined in the Kaleidoscope video is very much an engineering solution. Sadly, that means there will be a loss of quality although frankly it will never be very good due to the medium. It's also not the fantastic leap forward that Chris Perry states in his intro; I achieved better results in 1998 from very good CV2000 recordings and not quite as good results 10 years ago from Peto Scott recordings. What is visible in the Kaleidoscope video are all the problems you would expect due to the use of a digital timebase corrector. It may produce viewing copies, but it's unlikely to improve beyond what has already been achieved. There is of course a more elegant solution. Paul
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Post by iwest on Jan 3, 2019 10:27:06 GMT
It may produce viewing copies, but it's unlikely to improve beyond what has already been achieved. There is of course a more elegant solution. Paul I'm possibly showing my naivety here, but what is actually preventing a collaborative effort that incorporates your expertise? Surely what matters above all is the quality of the results.
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Post by petercheck on Jan 3, 2019 11:47:03 GMT
Does anyone know the broadcast date of the Elton John 'Rocket Man' clip? I believe he performed the song 3 times on TOTP: 27-04-72 (repeated on 11-05-72), 25-05-72 and 25-12-72.
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Post by Paul Watkins on Jan 3, 2019 15:29:38 GMT
Does anyone know the broadcast date of the Elton John 'Rocket Man' clip? I believe he performed the song 3 times on TOTP: 27-04-72 (repeated on 11-05-72), 25-05-72 and 25-12-72. We won't know unless there are DJ links before or after the clip but it's not from the 25-12-1972 for sure.
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Post by markboulton on Jan 3, 2019 15:35:59 GMT
Yes as great as this find is, and the fact they have a working CV2000 machine, the capture quality, even considering the source format, is clearly well below what they should be aiming for. I watched the clip in HD on my Virgin box and you can tell the artefacts in the captures as you see them are not due to YouTube compression... unless they deliberately "enworsened" them to dissuade anybody from ripping off the clips (Even though they're watermarked).
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Post by Paul Watkins on Jan 3, 2019 15:58:36 GMT
Wow! Fantastic find, and as a bonus we'll have 405 to 625 conversion without loss of quality at last. What's the format of these? Are they skip field or full 405 line? Hi Sue, CV2000 recordings are skip field. The process outlined in the Kaleidoscope video is very much an engineering solution. Sadly, that means there will be a loss of quality although frankly it will never be very good due to the medium. It's also not the fantastic leap forward that Chris Perry states in his intro; I achieved better results in 1998 from very good CV2000 recordings and not quite as good results 10 years ago from Peto Scott recordings. What is visible in the Kaleidoscope video are all the problems you would expect due to the use of a digital timebase corrector. It may produce viewing copies, but it's unlikely to improve beyond what has already been achieved. There is of course a more elegant solution. Paul What's the solution Paul?
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Post by petercheck on Jan 3, 2019 19:26:44 GMT
Does anyone know the broadcast date of the Elton John 'Rocket Man' clip? I believe he performed the song 3 times on TOTP: 27-04-72 (repeated on 11-05-72), 25-05-72 and 25-12-72. We won't know unless there are DJ links before or after the clip but it's not from the 25-12-1972 for sure. I forgot that a short segment of the 25-12-72 performance survives:
I have found a photo of Elton on TOTP in '72, which I think features the same outfit as the newly found clip, but unfortunately it is undated:
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Jan 3, 2019 20:11:54 GMT
Yes as great as this find is, and the fact they have a working CV2000 machine, the capture quality, even considering the source format, is clearly well below what they should be aiming for. I watched the clip in HD on my Virgin box and you can tell the artefacts in the captures as you see them are not due to YouTube compression... unless they deliberately "enworsened" them to dissuade anybody from ripping off the clips (Even though they're watermarked). The artefacts appear to me to be a side effect of the digital TBC doing its work. It's doing its best. The big problem with CV2000 recordings is their instability, poor quality and the big one, the lack of digital equipment geared to take in 405 video. There is a solution for 405 quad of course, but there you have a rock solid replay. This is something else altogether. Paul
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Post by robertreinstein on Jan 4, 2019 1:06:11 GMT
Does anyone know the broadcast date of the Elton John 'Rocket Man' clip? I believe he performed the song 3 times on TOTP: 27-04-72 (repeated on 11-05-72), 25-05-72 and 25-12-72. A friend told me it is May 11, 1972.
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Post by Sue Butcher on Jan 4, 2019 5:09:37 GMT
Yes as great as this find is, and the fact they have a working CV2000 machine, the capture quality, even considering the source format, is clearly well below what they should be aiming for. I watched the clip in HD on my Virgin box and you can tell the artefacts in the captures as you see them are not due to YouTube compression... unless they deliberately "enworsened" them to dissuade anybody from ripping off the clips (Even though they're watermarked). The artefacts appear to me to be a side effect of the digital TBC doing its work. It's doing its best. The big problem with CV2000 recordings is their instability, poor quality and the big one, the lack of digital equipment geared to take in 405 video. There is a solution for 405 quad of course, but there you have a rock solid replay. This is something else altogether. Paul Aha, replay instability is what they're trying to overcome here. So nobody has equipment to capture and directly convert 405 line signals to 625 line for digital storage yet? Are we still in the stone age pointing 625 line cameras at 405 line monitors for conversion? An experimental technique I've heard about is MFM, magnetic force microscopy, which could theoretically map the magnetic patterns on a tape that can't be replayed successfully. I imagine it would be a very slow and expensive process, like the tomography used on the gooey M&W episode.
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Post by petercheck on Jan 4, 2019 8:10:47 GMT
Does anyone know the broadcast date of the Elton John 'Rocket Man' clip? I believe he performed the song 3 times on TOTP: 27-04-72 (repeated on 11-05-72), 25-05-72 and 25-12-72. A friend told me it is May 11, 1972. Thanks Robert. Any idea what made he/she reach that conclusion?
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Post by Thomas Walsh on Jan 6, 2019 2:39:24 GMT
Ahhh this is wonderful. Already this find has now gone down the road of delay and quality conjecture so it'll all just deteriorate into a slanging match and technical mumbo jumbo that'll thrill the few who'll get to see these clips privately but just anger and bemuse the fans who want this stuff to be shared and enjoyed. See you in 2025 for an update.
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Post by John Marshall on Jan 6, 2019 6:01:18 GMT
I'm VERY worried about the "quality conjecture" myself and am worried that an inferior digital copy is going to result as even after a brief 5 minute search I found hardware to allow 405 tape signals to be displayed correctly in a modern space. Time to get on the net and ask for help boomers! Someone has overcome this problem and they are on the internet waiting to help. Perhaps this is of some use? vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=79988
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Jan 6, 2019 9:38:42 GMT
I'm VERY worried about the "quality conjecture" myself and am worried that an inferior digital copy is going to result as even after a brief 5 minute search I found hardware to allow 405 tape signals to be displayed correctly in a modern space. Time to get on the net and ask for help boomers! Someone has overcome this problem and they are on the internet waiting to help. Perhaps this is of some use? vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=79988Sorry John, but you need a new set of 'specs'. The system that you link to converts 625 pictures so they can be displayed on 405 TV sets. Why would anyone want to do that you may ask? Getting 405 pictures to 625 is actually not that difficult. However, what is tricky is getting unstable 405 line CV2000 recordings stable enough for them to be recorded and converted to 625. With regards, Paul
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Post by Peter Lynch on Jan 6, 2019 10:58:42 GMT
Yes as great as this find is, and the fact they have a working CV2000 machine, the capture quality, even considering the source format, is clearly well below what they should be aiming for. I watched the clip in HD on my Virgin box and you can tell the artefacts in the captures as you see them are not due to YouTube compression... unless they deliberately "enworsened" them to dissuade anybody from ripping off the clips (Even though they're watermarked). The artefacts appear to me to be a side effect of the digital TBC doing its work. It's doing its best. The big problem with CV2000 recordings is their instability, poor quality and the big one, the lack of digital equipment geared to take in 405 video. There is a solution for 405 quad of course, but there you have a rock solid replay. This is something else altogether. Paul I'm feeling very old ... As a tape op running a 405 quad tape on a VR2000 in Vertical lock via the ACE converter in CAR to produce almost perfect 625 dubs in the basement at Television Centre.... Those days long gone sadly ...... This is a bit of a kludge though... I'm guessing here, but shoving it through that Snell (by the looks of it) gets something but its not locked and then the image stretched in FCP (is it?) ... clever but not nice. Not exactly mapped pixel for pixel as they say these days.....
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