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Post by John Wall on Nov 3, 2018 23:56:08 GMT
Just a cautionary note, it’s very easy to conjure up scenarios to increase the number of prints but there were only ever a certain number of prints.
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Ace St.John
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Posts: 139
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Post by Ace St.John on Nov 4, 2018 1:28:53 GMT
Ok so we know that at least one set of positive prints were struck but then again there would be surely an original negative for the positive to be struck from. We can assume that the original VT transmission tapes were eventually wiped but there would have been at least 3 copies of Daleks Masterplan in existence at one time. The original Video tapes, the 16mm telerecording and the negative rolls of the telerecordings. Also the 35mm film footage of the filmed sequences. Off air recordings would also increase the chance of more copies in existance in the years soon after broadcast.
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Post by charles drummel on Nov 4, 2018 1:59:12 GMT
Ok so we know that at least one set of positive prints were struck but then again there would be surely an original negative for the positive to be struck from. We can assume that the original VT transmission tapes were eventually wiped but there would have been at least 3 copies of Daleks Masterplan in existence at one time. The original Video tapes, the 16mm telerecording and the negative rolls of the telerecordings. Also the 35mm film footage of the filmed sequences. Off air recordings would also increase the chance of more copies in existance in the years soon after broadcast. But in the context of hopefully finding episodes, surely only the 16mm positive prints are of relevance? Has a telerecording negative for Doctor Who ever shown up outside of any of the official holdings, in someone else's hands? I suppose something could be filed away mislabeled. I don't think off air recordings are very likely for something last shown in 1965, unless we happen to get a few very short 8mm sequences again!
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Post by Nicholas Fitzpatrick on Nov 5, 2018 16:30:45 GMT
And only the first Cushing film had a theatrical distribution in the States, the second only was only ever shown on TV. I was surprised at this, given how frequently I've tripped over 1960s movies ads that included the Dalek movies. Quickly checking now ... gosh, I don't see any references to the second movie - locally in Toronto at least - until early 1971 when it started showing up on a newly opened independent TV station (WUTV) across the border in New York state.
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Post by Robert Lia on Nov 5, 2018 21:57:51 GMT
I remember Dalek's Invasion Earth 2150AD being shown on several Los Angeles TV stations in the early 1970's including KHJ-9 (Independent) and as par of the 3:30 Movie on KABC-TV 7
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Post by George D on Nov 10, 2018 16:26:41 GMT
Regardless of how many prints of dmp were made. 3 of the 12 survive which questions how well the destruction order was followed. Hopefully if 3 escaped more escaped
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Post by williamb on Nov 19, 2018 0:36:38 GMT
Ok so we know that at least one set of positive prints were struck but then again there would be surely an original negative for the positive to be struck from. We can assume that the original VT transmission tapes were eventually wiped but there would have been at least 3 copies of Daleks Masterplan in existence at one time. The original Video tapes, the 16mm telerecording and the negative rolls of the telerecordings. Also the 35mm film footage of the filmed sequences. Off air recordings would also increase the chance of more copies in existance in the years soon after broadcast. Wouldn’t the same number of prints have been made as for other stories from this time period? Would Enterprises have had any idea that purchase-all-Doctor-Who Australia would ultimately reject DMP?
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Post by John Wall on Nov 19, 2018 23:17:22 GMT
Ok so we know that at least one set of positive prints were struck but then again there would be surely an original negative for the positive to be struck from. We can assume that the original VT transmission tapes were eventually wiped but there would have been at least 3 copies of Daleks Masterplan in existence at one time. The original Video tapes, the 16mm telerecording and the negative rolls of the telerecordings. Also the 35mm film footage of the filmed sequences. Off air recordings would also increase the chance of more copies in existance in the years soon after broadcast. Wouldn’t the same number of prints have been made as for other stories from this time period? Would Enterprises have had any idea that purchase-all-Doctor-Who Australia would ultimately reject DMP? Dr Who was a very small percentage of sales - striking prints costs money and requires storage space.
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Post by Jon Preddle on Nov 20, 2018 2:26:49 GMT
Wouldn’t the same number of prints have been made as for other stories from this time period? They were, which was none. By the time the second sales of season 3 stories was finalised - which was to Barbados in early 1967 - all Dalek stories had been pulled from the 'catalogue', so that plus the non-sale to Australia meant the BBC wouldn't have been striking any further prints of TDMP.
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Post by Ralph Rose on Nov 20, 2018 6:19:23 GMT
I like to think of the problem as likened to Schrodinger's Cat paradox. It's the same paradox that explains the missing episodes existence. They both, exist and not exist, and the only proof of ones existence is when an episode is actually found.
Without the lost paperwork, there is no proof either way if more than one print was struck. Even though it's still highly unlikely, the odds isn't zero chance. The only way to prove it either way is to find the missing paperwork, or some other evidence.
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Post by rmackenziefehr on Nov 20, 2018 22:51:41 GMT
Dr Who was a very small percentage of sales - striking prints costs money and requires storage space. That, and there are two other points to make: 1) Given that the general trajectory of needed prints for Doctor Who was downward in this period (with several more broadcasters having just dropped out after The Time Meddler), it is hard to believe that the BBC would have been making any prints based on a presumption of sales, instead of doing so once they had confirmed orders for the prints. 2) The very fact that they kept telerecording negatives is a demonstration of this point- by having these around, prints could be made as needed.
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Post by Matthew Kurth on Nov 21, 2018 5:28:42 GMT
I heard that when Terry Nation wanted to introduce a new series on the Daleks called "The Destroyers" in America, he planed on bringing back the Space Security Service from The Daleks Masterplan and Mission to the Unknown. I have nothing of substance to add here, I just wanted to say I very much enjoy your avatar.
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Post by Qasim Yusuf on Nov 21, 2018 7:49:49 GMT
I heard that when Terry Nation wanted to introduce a new series on the Daleks called "The Destroyers" in America, he planed on bringing back the Space Security Service from The Daleks Masterplan and Mission to the Unknown. I have nothing of substance to add here, I just wanted to say I very much enjoy your avatar. Thanks! ☺
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Post by williamb on Nov 22, 2018 18:11:53 GMT
Dr Who was a very small percentage of sales - striking prints costs money and requires storage space. That, and there are two other points to make: 1) Given that the general trajectory of needed prints for Doctor Who was downward in this period (with several more broadcasters having just dropped out after The Time Meddler), it is hard to believe that the BBC would have been making any prints based on a presumption of sales, instead of doing so once they had confirmed orders for the prints. 2) The very fact that they kept telerecording negatives is a demonstration of this point- by having these around, prints could be made as needed. I guess what I was wondering about was the procedure by the time of Season 3. From these answers, it seems that no prints would be on hand until an order was placed, and then they would be struck from the negatives. And then would only one set be made? Was it cheaper to make, say, two sets of prints while the transfer equipment was set up versus a single set of prints on two separate occasions? Also, sorry to repeat myself, but since Australia always accepted DW, wouldn’t Enterprises have assumed that at least one set of prints was needed?
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Post by Ralph Rose on Nov 23, 2018 7:49:51 GMT
That, and there are two other points to make: 1) Given that the general trajectory of needed prints for Doctor Who was downward in this period (with several more broadcasters having just dropped out after The Time Meddler), it is hard to believe that the BBC would have been making any prints based on a presumption of sales, instead of doing so once they had confirmed orders for the prints. 2) The very fact that they kept telerecording negatives is a demonstration of this point- by having these around, prints could be made as needed. I guess what I was wondering about was the procedure by the time of Season 3. From these answers, it seems that no prints would be on hand until an order was placed, and then they would be struck from the negatives. And then would only one set be made? Was it cheaper to make, say, two sets of prints while the transfer equipment was set up versus a single set of prints on two separate occasions? Also, sorry to repeat myself, but since Australia always accepted DW, wouldn’t Enterprises have assumed that at least one set of prints was needed? Theory One: At least one set of prints were struck (except for Feast of Steven) for the very reason that Australia requested it and wanted to broadcast it. The Australian censors rejected the whole of it however so it was never shown or sold. The return of episode 2, 5, and 10 are thought by some to be either from this set, along with the source of the episode 4 clip used for Blue Peter, or sourced from an internal set that never left enterprises until junked due to theory two below. Theory Two: It is possible that one more set was struck because of anticipation of Australia's acceptance, therefore it could be bought by others in the commonwealth. And there were countries that were broadcasting DW up until "Time Meddler", that if they bought season three, would need separate prints because of tight scheduling. (I forget which countries these were at the moment.) It is also a possibility that season three was rejected by those countries because of the missing Dalek story they couldn't afford without Australia. This could explain the lack of physical evidence on the prints that other returns from Australia had. They could also be lacking that evidence due to them being rejected. The Paperwork is missing that would shed light on these two theories. Both theories are plausible, so are highly debatable. There is also a chance that Feast of Steven was telerecorded, due to internal BBC policy at the time, however the odds of a positive print ever being struck is very remote, so only a negative may/or may not have existed. Again paperwork to support or deny is sadly missing. So we may never know the answer to your question.
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