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Post by lousingh on Aug 25, 2018 0:36:21 GMT
One other caveat, even if tapes could be traced: Some of this discussion seems to be assuming that reused tapes were only reused once. I would be deeply cautious about assuming that unless documentary evidence exists definitely proving that- in the United States, at least, tapes could (and were) reused rather frequently. This makes the sort of recovers suggested in this thread much more complicated- if there are traces of multiple different programs on one tape, recovering any of them individually will be a lot harder, even if the technology allows for that. It is possible? Wow. I take it this is a similar procedure that Howard Goodall used to unravel the components of the component tracks for Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band and Magical Mystery Tour.
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Simon Collis
Member
I have started to dream of lost things
Posts: 536
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Post by Simon Collis on Aug 25, 2018 11:52:11 GMT
It is possible? Wow. I take it this is a similar procedure that Howard Goodall used to unravel the components of the component tracks for Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band and Magical Mystery Tour. We don't know if it is, so far some of us have been wondering whether it is and trying to work out the technical possibilities. I suspect it would involve some rather more intricate algebra than I'm used to - not that I have the time to sit in from of Visual Studio and write the code, anyway, these days...
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Post by rmackenziefehr on Aug 27, 2018 9:10:57 GMT
Not that I know of- I'll leave it to actual engineers to testify about it being feasible.
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Post by brianfretwell on Sept 1, 2018 10:44:46 GMT
One other caveat, even if tapes could be traced: Some of this discussion seems to be assuming that reused tapes were only reused once. I would be deeply cautious about assuming that unless documentary evidence exists definitely proving that- in the United States, at least, tapes could (and were) reused rather frequently. This makes the sort of recovers suggested in this thread much more complicated- if there are traces of multiple different programs on one tape, recovering any of them individually will be a lot harder, even if the technology allows for that. I'm sure I read on the RT forum that tapes were reused time and time again until they had a certain number (about 7 IIRC) physical edits in them and that they were bulk erased between uses. I used to be a computer magnetic tape librarian and used a bulk eraser that could take 2" tape so the equipment was common, however due to the weight of 2" spools I would forgive anyone who didn't bother occasionally, you should erase one way then turn the tape over, roatate by 90 degrees and put it through again. Easy with 1/2 computer tape not so with 2" VT.
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Post by Richard Bignell on Sept 1, 2018 13:45:49 GMT
Back when they were making physical edits to the videotape, once the tape was released for reuse, it would be cut down in length to remove all the splices made. So if a one hour tape had a final splice 15 minutes in, it would then be physically trimmed down and a 45-minute spool put back into the library. This would continue until the tape became so short as to be useless and needed to be replaced. To cover the cost of a new tape, the production office would be charged for each physical splice made. That way, Engineering gradually accrued the cost of replacing the tape with a new one. Bulk erasers would also be used and one can be seen in action at the 2'52" mark in the National Lottery: Amazing Luck Stories about the recovery of The Lion back in 1999 - National Lottery: Amazing Luck Stories
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Post by Jaspal Cheema on Sept 1, 2018 17:45:28 GMT
Back when they were making physical edits to the videotape, once the tape was released for reuse, it would be cut down in length to remove all the splices made. So if a one hour tape had a final splice 15 minutes in, it would then be physically trimmed down and a 45-minute spool put back into the library. This would continue until the tape became so short as to be useless and needed to be replaced. To cover the cost of a new tape, the production office would be charged for each physical splice made. That way, Engineering gradually accrued the cost of replacing the tape with a new one. Bulk erasers would also be used and one can be seen in action at the 2'52" mark in the National Lottery: Amazing Luck Stories about the recovery of The Lion back in 1999 - National Lottery: Amazing Luck StoriesI don't know about physical splices Richard but the National Lottery really tried shoe-horning a feature on Dr Who with their desperately dull lottery machine. Talk about contrived!Still,it was 1999 and any Dr Who crumbs were welcome.
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Post by Natalie Sinead on Sept 27, 2018 3:21:39 GMT
What could have happened to the 35mm film print of Power of the Daleks part 6 then? All of the other 60s episodes recorded on 35mm exist so it probably wasn't junked. No, we have the paperwork. it was definitely junked.
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Post by Charles Daniels on Sept 27, 2018 9:00:37 GMT
I had some work experience with a small media production company in California, in total it was 4 years of doing odd jobs for them. Everything from editing video tape, being a cameraman, doing lighting, doing radio promotions -- real fun times.
My favourite was working with Video Toaster on an Amiga 2000, which was really cutting edge lovely stuff for the time. But did lead to using canned video toaster effects until they all eventually became cheesy and cliche.
One thing we did frequently was run VHS tapes over bulk erasers. Bulk erasers do what they say on the tin. You get a tape, put it on a bulk eraser, and the tape is back to static snow when you play it back. Theoretically you could do a half arsed job and get little blips of survivors, but you don't want ghosting or interference. So we would just keep the tapes on the bulk eraser until we were damn well sure nothing could survive. But the whole process is extremely fast anyway.
My gut says, from experience, that those tapes are wiped.
You can say "What about colour recovery!? No one saw that coming!"
But that's because they didn't realise part of the signal that had been captured and was there at the time. A lot of healthy signal in place and you got more bang for your buck out of that signal than you were expecting. That's a completely different story to a signal that has been actively obliterated, over written, and then left to age in a corner somewhere.
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Ace St.John
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Posts: 139
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Post by Ace St.John on Sept 27, 2018 16:11:39 GMT
What could have happened to the 35mm film print of Power of the Daleks part 6 then? All of the other 60s episodes recorded on 35mm exist so it probably wasn't junked. No, we have the paperwork. it was definitely junked. I thought I'd read somewhere that this had been at Film Library on Windmill Road London and was catalogued there but there was no film reel in the placeholder. I could be wrong about that tho
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Post by Richard Bignell on Sept 27, 2018 18:41:58 GMT
I thought I'd read somewhere that this had been at Film Library on Windmill Road London and was catalogued there but there was no film reel in the placeholder. I could be wrong about that tho It had been at the Film Library, but it was definitely junked. Sometime around late 1968.
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Post by Qasim Yusuf on Sept 27, 2018 20:24:15 GMT
I thought I'd read somewhere that this had been at Film Library on Windmill Road London and was catalogued there but there was no film reel in the placeholder. I could be wrong about that tho It had been at the Film Library, but it was definitely junked. Sometime around late 1968. Any particular reason as to why this was junked yet all the other episodes on 35mm survive?
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Post by Natalie Sinead on Sept 27, 2018 21:34:56 GMT
It had been at the Film Library, but it was definitely junked. Sometime around late 1968. Any particular reason as to why this was junked yet all the other episodes on 35mm survive? They don't all survive. The Wheel in Space part 5 was also junked.
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Post by Arthur Chim on Sept 28, 2018 3:30:00 GMT
It had been at the Film Library, but it was definitely junked. Sometime around late 1968. Any particular reason as to why this was junked yet all the other episodes on 35mm survive? Seeing the documentation makes me sad - it makes it real. The only hope is that after it was turfed in a bin that someone rescued it, a long shot I know.
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Post by Sue Butcher on Sept 29, 2018 8:46:49 GMT
Not very likely; that amount of 35mm film is bulky and heavy, and unless you worked for a cinema you wouldn't have a 35mm projector to show it on.
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Post by Arthur Chim on Sept 29, 2018 12:28:22 GMT
Not very likely; that amount of 35mm film is bulky and heavy, and unless you worked for a cinema you wouldn't have a 35mm projector to show it on. I never considered these factors. This makes me double
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